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Something I found interesting

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:51 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
I found this to be a good article. I might even buy the book.
Have at it athiests and believers alike.
:ok
Why God Makes More Sense than Atheism
After two centuries of the tug-of-war between science and religion, it's clear science occupies the dominant position. It has passed the "So what?" test, meaning that science as applied to practical daily life has been immensely more important to modern people than God. This has given atheism, both casual and militant, the upper hand. As much as belief in God has deep human significance, he (or she) doesn't pass the "So what?" test. If you put a video camera on the shoulders of an atheist and a believer, without knowing which was which, it's hard to claim that the believer will have a better life because of his belief. Atheism therefore looks like just as good a choice.

I've always felt that this lopsided advantage we automatically give to science, and therefore to atheism, is unfair. In a new book, The Future of God, I turn the tables, proving as best I can that God isn't just a humane, comforting, or moral choice but the most practical source of well-being. This will certainly come as surprising news to millions of the faithful who have been leading divided lives. Their practical affairs are secular, taking advantage of technological advances, while in their hearts they leave a privileged space for God. Rarely do we hear that God is actually more rational than science and more practical than technology.

To accomplish this turn-around, first the playing field needs to be leveled. A few basic assumptions need to be cleared up. Let me do that in abbreviated form, since I don't have space to elaborate at length, as I do in the book.
1. Science isn't by definition anti-religious.
2. Atheists have a point when they accuse organized religion of a litany of gross failings, including crusades, jihads, and the Inquisition. But religions are human institutions prone to every human failing. Religious history is about us, not about whether God exists.
3. God can be approached without resorting to the cultural mythology of a humanized Father and Mother watching over us from Heaven. Atheists largely attack this myth, but smashing a myth doesn't mean you've smashed reality.
4. There is a rich tradition, both East and West, of an impersonal God. This God is the source of consciousness and all that we associate with consciousness: self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, evolution, etc.
5. The experience of God is found inside our own consciousness, not "out there" in a supernatural realm.

Militant atheists like Richard Dawkins seem convincing when they cloak themselves in rationality and science while portraying God in terms of irrationality and superstition. This makes for nice rhetoric, pitting an absolutely good side against an absolutely bad one, but Dawkins and his crowd know little about spirituality and less about consciousness. Everything they say, once you winnow out the freight of arrogance, dismissiveness, false representation, chop logic, and bad faith (there's a lot to discard, believe me), the basis for modern atheism is a materialistic belief that nothing except physical objects and processes can be real. This stance is known as "naive realism," and it has served atheists well because we all live our lives as naive realists.

That is, we believe the information brought to us by the five senses. What we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell can be treated, for all practical purposes, as reliably real. We navigate through the day using the mind at its common-sense level. Emotions, both positive and negative, influence us all the time, even if we wish they wouldn't. The world "in here," a domain of introspection and unseen forces, is largely unexplored.

The problem with naive realism is that, although workable, it's not scientifically valid and it can't possibly lead to God. This is where the level playing field comes in with a vengeance. On the one hand quantum physics has totally dismantled the validity of the five senses when it comes to understanding the "real" reality that defies not just our eyes and ears but our common sense and our reliance on such appearances as linear time and three-dimensional space. On the other hand, the mystery of the "real" reality is intimately tied to understanding our own consciousness. This double whammy more or less flattens Dawkins-style atheism intellectually, which is why science and consciousness have become strange bedfellows if you are bamboozled into believing that atheism is more valid than spirituality.

In truth, all experiences are subjective, including the experience of doing science. Before we can be completely sure of any fact, science must account for something more basic: How do we know the world? What is the connection between objectivity and subjectivity? What is consciousness to begin with? At first blush these questions don't seem to pass the "So what?" test. They appear to belong in the ivory towers of the academy. But if you do nothing more than accept the new level playing field that now prevails, immense practical consequences result. Again, let me abbreviate the main points.
1. If all experience is subjective, going inward is a valid means of exploring reality.
2. In this exploration, new levels of consciousness reveal themselves.
3. At deeper levels of consciousness, perception changes radically.
4. As perception changes, so does reality itself, since nothing is real for us beyond what we can perceive in some way.
5. The conjunction of the individual mind with the source of consciousness is where God lives.

In short, God is a journey in consciousness, and because that's so, whatever benefit we gain from being conscious is increased once we obtain direct access to God. Needless to say, atheists don't even begin such a journey, because they dismiss it outright in advance. But the benefits of being more conscious will appeal to any rational person. If there is indeed a source of creativity, intelligence, power, love, truth--pick any divine attribute you want--the choice between God and atheism suddenly becomes radically revised. Atheism becomes the choice not to look into God, to passively accept second-hand opinions about the non-existence of God, and to judge spirituality worthless without question. As my example of putting a video camera on the shoulder of an atheist and a believer showed, there's no reason to doubt that being an unbeliever can lead to a satisfying practical life.

But the video camera doesn't show the inner effect of expanding one's awareness, and I would venture--as argued at length in the book--that God brings the highest state of well-being no matter how you define the term. As the great quantum pioneer Max Planck observed, there is no getting behind consciousness. The mystery of realty can only be solved there. Which means that the mystery of personal realty, yours and mine, can only be solved there, too. This is the strongest incentive to find God, and the possibility that God will have a future that's crucial to human happiness and survival.

Deepak Chopra, MD is the author of more than 80 books with twenty-two New York Times bestsellers. He serves as the founder of The Chopra Foundation and co-founder of The Chopra Center for Wellbeing. His latest book is The Future of God

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:11 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Good old Sixpack Chopsticks. If only he had some snakeoil he'd write 800 books.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:16 am
by Scooter
It sounds very John Spong-ish, and in fact is somewhere I would have placed myself a few years back, by and large. minus the need to make it a competition with atheism and the unnecessary swipes at it. Even as an atheist, just as we know that there is a force we call gravity that connects bodies of matter, so too I can conceive that there might be some connective force behind all human consciousness, something that existing scientific knowledge and methods are incapable of detecting or measuring directly at this time, or perhaps ever. It's like when I see research about the power of prayer in physical healing - part of me remains skeptical, sure, but another part of me wonders if it is evidence of the existence of that as yet undetectable, unmeasurable connective force.

Where Chopra errs, I think, is in concluding that the existence of such a force necessitates the existence of God. or of any supernatural concept whatsoever. It may indeed be yet one more physical phenomenon, like gravity or radiation, whose existence could not be defined until someone came along to discover the science necessary to describe it.

eta - And btw, atheism doesn't require labelling spirituality generally or belief in God specifically as useless. If spirituality brings one to a clearer understanding of oneself and one's relationship to others and the world, if it leads one to treat oneself and others with respect and kindness and love, if it inspires one to act to leave this world a better place by one's passage through it, then I would find such spirituality to be incredibly useful. I only resent when that spirituality also presumes that my life must necessarily be empty and meaningless and without any purpose or value just because I don't need to share a belief in that spirituality in order to work towards those goals in my life.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:34 am
by Econoline
:ok Well said, Scooter.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:23 pm
by Big RR
I fully agree with your last point Scooter; unfortunately, there are many atheist jerks who wouldn't. Those who drone on and on about the stupidity of a belief in a supreme being--likening it to a giant spaghetti monster, e.g. But the jerks on both sides don't want a dialog or understanding, they just want to score what they perceive as points.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:29 pm
by Lord Jim
btw, atheism doesn't require labelling spirituality generally or belief in God specifically as useless.
No, it doesn't require it but as Big RR just pointed out, there are plenty of arrogant, dickhead atheists who see it as a requirement on their part...

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:35 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
so too I can conceive that there might be some connective force behind all human consciousness, something that existing scientific knowledge and methods are incapable of detecting or measuring directly at this time, or perhaps ever.
That's how I think of it too.

When we are troubled or in need, we (un)consiously send out signals which this "force" carries. These go out and reach people who may render aid.

Like a calm lake and someone falls in. They splash about causing ripples and someone in their house sees those ripples. Wondering what is causing the ripples they investigate and see the man in distress. They jump in their boat and help him.

Works for me.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:37 pm
by wesw
exactly older, and after you receive such kindnesses.... you want to pass it on.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:20 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Even if I don't receive kindness, I give kindness.
A guy in my therepy group was havign some fiscal problems, his direct deposit paycheck got routed incorrectly (it was his first DD ever). He was running on fumes so I handed him $10 (all i had) and told him I do not lend money as it gets awkward whenever we meet up and one expects to get paid back and the other avoids the situation as he doesn't have the money. The only "gotcha" that comes with this $10 is when you find someone who needs help, you help them.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:51 pm
by rubato
Deeppockets Chopra spews plausible bullshit for people who REALLY want to believe bad enough that they don't notice the self-deception when it happens.

Love his Aurvedic medicine gag. Made him a fortune.

http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEdu ... hopra.html
Deepak Chopra (1947- ) claims that "by consciously using our awareness, we can influence the way we age biologically. . . . You can tell your body not to age." He has reportedly made tens of millions of dollars marketing such messages along with books, lectures, tapes, and consumables based on a "modern" version of an ancient Indian healing system (ayurvedic medicine). Chopra promises "perfect health" to those who—through ayurvedic methods—can harness their consciousness as a healing force. Chopra claims that "remaining healthy is actually a conscious choice" and that "anything in your body can be changed with the flick of an intention." [1] He states:

If you have happy thoughts, then you make happy molecules. On the other hand, if you have sad thoughts, and angry thoughts, and hostile thoughts, then you make those molecules which may depress the immune system and make you more susceptible to disease.

The rear cover of his book Perfect Health states:

Once you have determined your body type from the detailed quiz inside . . . this book provides you with a personally tailored program of diet, stress reduction, exercises and daily routines. It's based on a 5,000-year-old system of mind/body medicine that has been revived today as Maharishi Ayurveda. Its a total plan for . . . using the power of quantum healing to transcend disease and aging—for achieving Perfect Health.

Chopra claims that herbs prescribed in ayurvedic treatment "take the intelligence of the universe and match it with the intelligence of our own body." His audiocassette program, "Magical Mind, Magical Body," is promised to help you "achieve a brilliantly blissful life." Time/Life Video has advertised his "audiovisual workshop" as "a must for anyone seeking perfect health." Called "Growing Younger - Practical Guide to Lifelong Youth," it contains tapes and a guidebook containing "interactive exercises designed to help you personalize your anti-aging strategy to your body's individual needs." ... "

yrs,
rubato

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:55 pm
by wesw
I don t know about staying young, but bio feedback can be helpful in control of migraines.

anecdotal, but true none the less....

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:39 am
by rubato
It is so simple. You just have to have happy thoughts so you will have happy molecules.

Just send $75 to deep pockets Chopra and you'll figure it out.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:12 am
by wesw
I get all the non sense I need here, rube. keep it coming....

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:42 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
It finally happened - rubato and I are in complete agreement (about Six-Pack Choplogic and his flim-flam bullshit). Oprah must love him.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:51 pm
by Lord Jim
He's got a long running infomercial gig on PBS...

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:55 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
I guess he put the BS in the name then?

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:47 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
HAving a positive attitude and upbeat feelings and perhaps having joy in ones belief in a higher power usually does make life better and may help in the healing process. Don't know if it helps one to live even one sceond longer but it certainly makes living much more pleasurable.

I one is depressed and felling down all the time, then even an hour seems like an eternity and could lead to suicide which would certainly shorten ones lifespan.

So if that is factored in, then happy thoughts does lead to a longer life.

Me, I've been happy for some four months now.

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:21 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Which is all well and good oldr but has nothing to do with the snake-oil salesman Deepsix Choker

Re: Something I found interesting

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:49 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
MajGenl.Meade wrote:Which is all well and good oldr but has nothing to do with the snake-oil salesman Deepsix Choker
Agreed, as most know, if you go near the snake oil salesman, you may get the fangs (which could lead to an early demise).
That is not a happy thought.