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Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:10 pm
by rubato
The only way to have a better future is the acknowledge the sins of the past and do what is possible to atone for them. Spain is close behind, apparently.



http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... elled-jews
Portugal's Cabinet approved a law Thursday that would offer citizenship to the descendants of Sephardic Jews who were expelled, burned at the stake or forcibly converted to Christianity 500 years ago.

"I do not want to say this is an historic amendment because I believe that for this matter, there is no possibility to amend what was done," Portuguese Justice Minister Paula Teixeira da Cruz said, according to The Associated Press. "I would say it is the attribution of a right."

The AP adds: "Applicants will be vetted by Portuguese Jewish community institutions, as well as by government agencies. They will have to say whether they have a criminal record."

The law, which grants Portuguese citizenship in addition to the applicant's current nationality, is expected to go into effect by mid-February or early March, Oulman Carp, president of Lisbon's Jewish community, told the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.

The legislation, which was approved by Parliament in 2013, will also apply to non-Jewish descendants of the Sephardim who once lived in the Iberian Peninsula, Carp said.

Portugal's Jews, who once numbered in the tens of thousands, were expelled in 1536 during the Portuguese Inquisition. About 1,000 Jews remain in the country today.

The Portuguese measure mirrors a similar effort in Spain, which is also trying to atone for its history of anti-Semitism during the Spanish Inquisition. As NPR's Emily Harris and Lauren Frayer reported in December, Spain's government approved a draft law that would grant Spanish citizenship to descendants of Jews expelled in 1492.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:28 pm
by Econoline
:ok Parabéns, Portugal...muito bom!




:stir: BTW...those who are outraged at the lack of instantaneous transformation in Islam would be well-advised to note that this simple act of contrition took 5 centuries.

Just sayin' :mrgreen:

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:58 pm
by rubato
Interesting that it is the secular state who offers to make amends. Not the church who murdered, tortured and expelled, and then stole the property of those condemned. The secular state is more moral than the church. As always.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:22 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Do try to catch up. There's a standing offer from the church welcoming all Jews who want to convert and become members

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:30 pm
by Guinevere
Which is hardly the same thing. And actually rather insulting.

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:39 pm
by Econoline
MajGenl.Meade wrote:...a standing offer from the church...
Image





ETA:
Image

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:41 pm
by Guinevere
Exactly.

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:53 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Irony meter, much? Let me explain... Spain and Portugal are granting rights of citizenship (oh wow! what a blessing!) to descendants of Jewish persons etc etc.

rubato waved his presence around, pointing out that secular govts. are doing something "the church" (i.e. the Roman church) has not done.

My riposte was the ironic statement that the (Roman) church has welcomed Jews as "citizens" for a lot longer, provided they renounce their faith of course, and rubato needs to catch up on the news.

See... that "welcome" and the concomitant expulsion and murder was what started the whole thing in the first place. It's the opposite of what I wrote...

Sheesh! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:00 am
by Lord Jim
I don't know about anyone else...

Maybe it's just my temporalphile prejudice...

But as great a devotee of history as I am, I tend to see what's going on in 2015 (particularly as far governments and religions are concerned) to be considerably more relevant then what was going in 1492 or 1536...

Or 1372...or 673....or 4000 BC...

Since unlike those other times, this happens to be the time that I and those I care about, you know, actually live in...

But hey, that's just me.... 8-)

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:11 pm
by rubato
The Germans have paid reparations for their historic crimes.

The Vatican murdered, stole, and kept it.

If the church were merely AS moral as the secular government of Germany they would have made an effort to identify those harmed and pay reparations.


But this is the church who kidnapped 50,000 newborns in Spain and sold them between 1950 and 1980 and have stonewalled and refused to admit their guilt or do anything for the victims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_children_of_Francoism

By their works you will know them.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:48 pm
by rubato
I stand corrected, low by almost an order of magnitude:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Spain.html

300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

By Polly Dunbar for MailOnline
Updated: 05:55 EST, 16 October 2011

43

View comments

Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.

The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.

Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.
Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.
Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.

In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security ( willingness to pay up) meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.
...

Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates.

In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up.

Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people.

‘There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’
Reunited: Randy Ryder with Manoli Pagador, who believes she may be his real mother

Reunited: Randy Ryder with Manoli Pagador, who believes she may be his real mother

Experts believe the cases may account for up to 15 per cent of the total adoptions that took place in Spain between 1960 and 1989.

It began as a system for taking children away from families deemed politically dangerous to the regime of General Franco, which began in 1939. The system continued after the dictator’s death in 1975 as the Catholic church continued to retain a powerful influence on public life, particularly in social services.

It was not until 1987 that the Spanish government, instead of hospitals, began to regulate adoptions.

The scandal came to light after two men, Antonio Barroso and Juan Luis Moreno, discovered they had been stolen as babies.

Mr Moreno’s ‘father’ confessed on his deathbed to having bought him as a baby from a priest in Zaragoza in northern Spain. He told his son he had been accompanied on the trip by Mr Barroso’s parents, who bought Antonio at the same time for 200,000 pesetas – a huge sum at the time.

‘That was the price of an apartment back then,’ Mr Barroso said. ‘My parents paid it in instalments over the course of ten years because they did not have enough money.’
Bought for cash: Journalist Katya Adler with Juan Luis Moreno, who was sold as a baby

Bought for cash: Journalist Katya Adler with Juan Luis Moreno, who was sold as a baby

DNA tests have proved that the couple who brought up Mr Barroso were not his biological parents and the nun who sold him has admitted to doing so.

When the pair made their case public, it prompted mothers all over the country to come forward with their own experiences of being told their babies had died, but never believing it. One such woman was Manoli Pagador, who has begun searching for her son.

A BBC documentary, This World: Spain’s Stolen Babies, follows her efforts to discover if he is Randy Ryder, a stolen baby who was brought up in Texas and is now aged 40.

In some cases, babies’ graves have been exhumed, revealing bones that belong to adults or animals. Some of the graves contained nothing at all.

The BBC documentary features an interview with an 89-year-old woman named Ines Perez, who admitted that a priest encouraged her to fake a pregnancy so she could be given a baby girl due to be born at Madrid’s San Ramon clinic in 1969. ‘The priest gave me padding to wear on my stomach,’ she says.

It is claimed that the San Ramon clinic was one of the major centres for the practice.

Many mothers who gave birth there claim that when they asked to see their child after being told it had died, they were shown a baby’s corpse that appeared to be freezing cold.

The BBC programme shows photographs taken in the Eighties of a dead baby kept in a freezer, allegedly to show grieving mothers.

Despite hundreds of families of babies who disappeared in Spanish hospitals calling on the government to open an investigation into the scandal, no nationally co-ordinated probe has taken place.

As a result of amnesty laws passed after Franco’s death, crimes that took place during his regime are usually not examined. Instead, regional prosecutors across the country are investigating each story on a case-by-case basis, with 900 currently under review.

But Ms Adler says: ‘There is very little political will to get to the bottom of the situation.’

There are believed to be thousands more cases that will never come to light because the stolen children fear their adoptive parents will be seen as criminals.

Many of the families of stolen babies have taken DNA tests in the hope of eventually being matched with their children. Some matches have already been made but, without a nationally co-ordinated database, reuniting lost relatives will be a very difficult process.





Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3Qh3uSCv6

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:50 pm
by rubato
Lord Jim wrote:I don't know about anyone else...

Maybe it's just my temporalphile prejudice...

But as great a devotee of history as I am, I tend to see what's going on in 2015 (particularly as far governments and religions are concerned) to be considerably more relevant then what was going in 1492 or 1536...

Or 1372...or 673....or 4000 BC...

Since unlike those other times, this happens to be the time that I and those I care about, you know, actually live in...

But hey, that's just me.... 8-)


You're right, they should start by atoning for more recent crimes. Without being forced to by the government. For the first time in their history.

Then they can go back to crimes in recorded history.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:00 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Yes, I see that your link references complicity of the Spanish franchise of the Roman Church in the racist policies of the SECULAR government of Francisco Franco and the vanishment of over 300,000 children that the STATE decided should be taken from Republican parents.

I see a reference to child kidnappings that may have continued to 1980. Here's the Grauniad report referred to:
The victims of a network of doctors and nurses who allegedly stole babies in Spanish hospitals and sold them for adoption today called on the country's attorney general to open an investigation. The families of 261 babies who disappeared in Spanish hospitals over five decades presented their case to the attorney general's office in Madrid, including evidence from nurses and people who admitted illegally adopting babies.

What started as a system for taking children away from families deemed to be politically dangerous to the regime of General Francisco Franco became an illicit business that continued into the 1980s or later, a campaign group has claimed. Doctors, nurses, nuns and priests are all suspected of forming part of an organised network that told mothers their children had died during, or straight after, birth. Campaigners said they believed many thousands of cases of stolen babies would eventually come to light
I see that nuns and priests are "suspected" - along with doctors and nurses of perhaps making money from a scheme to take newborns from their mothers. Apparently they got the idea from Franco's SECULAR concerns.

Now what exactly should the Vatican apologise for again? Should they wait until the AMA issues an apology for what doctors and nurses did? Well, perhaps not the AMA - that's a USian outfit... maybe the Greeks then. Hippocrates was one of theirs.

Those are indeed awful crimes and perhaps Rome should apologise. But I would like a better link to demonstrate this 30,000 between 1950 and 1980 you described - a claim totally unsubstantiated by the link you did provide

(Update: I see that you did attempt that - with the Daily Fail, no less. Then it must be right. Obviously you didn't bother reading the Wiki article or you'd have known it wasn't 30,000 and that the BBC documentary is saying nothing more than the Grauniad did in January 2011)

Thanks

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:10 pm
by Lord Jim
Image

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:33 am
by rubato
having a reading problem?

300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3QjuyU079
Under Franco the Catholic church was given a great deal of direct power over society. That is why they were one of the most backwards countries in the 1st world. The Catholic church has a long association with supporting dictatorships, centuries.

Franco regime

In the early years of the Franco regime, church and state had a close and mutually beneficial association. The loyalty of the Roman Catholic Church to the Francoist state lent legitimacy to the dictatorship, which in turn restored and enhanced the church's traditional privileges.[22]

Franco's political system was virtually the antithesis of the final government of the republican era—the Popular Front government. In contrast to the anticlericalism of the Popular Front, the Francoist regime established policies that were highly favorable to the Catholic Church, which was restored to its previous status as the official religion of Spain. In addition to receiving government subsidies, the church regained its dominant position in the education system, and laws conformed to Catholic dogma.[22]

During the Franco years, Roman Catholicism was the only religion to have legal status; other worship services could not be advertised, and only the Roman Catholic Church could own property or publish books. The government not only paid priests' salaries and subsidized the church, but it also assisted in the reconstruction of church buildings damaged by the war. Laws were passed abolishing divorce and banning the sale of contraceptives. Catholic religious instruction was mandatory, even in public schools.[22]

In return, Franco secured the right to name Roman Catholic bishops in Spain, as well as veto power over appointments of clergy down to the parish priest level.[22]
Catalonia

Before 1930, anti-clericalism was deeply rooted in the historic region of Catalonia, which made Barcelona and its industrial workers a major center of the Republicanism during the Civil War. In the 1940s and 1950s, the church and Catalonia went through a grassroots revival, and gained wide popular support. By the 1960s, anti—clericalism had largely disappeared in the region and the Catholic Church became a central element in revival of Catalan nationalism and provided a base for the opposition to Francoism.[23]
Concordat of 1953
Main article: Concordat of 1953

In 1953 this close cooperation between the Catholic Church and the Franco regime was formalized in a new Concordat with the Vatican that granted the church specific privileges:

mandatory canonical marriages for all Catholics;
exemption from government taxation;
subsidies for new building construction;
censorship of materials the church deemed offensive;
the right to establish universities;
the right to operate radio stations, and to publish newspapers and magazines;
protection from police intrusion into church properties; and
exemption of clergy from military service.[22]
... "
yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:06 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Daily Fail and Stephen Fry - my two sources for all knowledge

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:03 pm
by rubato
MajGenl.Meade wrote:Daily Fail and Stephen Fry - my two sources for all knowledge

Weak, an ad hominem and dishonest even at that.

A BBC story described in the Daily Mail. You didn't read it at all did you?


In any case the fact rests that the church generally denies guilt and does nothing to admit or atone for it many horrors until forced to by secular authorities.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:56 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
You are the one that didn't bother reading it, you douchebag. You said "30,000" and then posted again to correct that, revealing your uselessness at reading your own link.

All the while I was busy writing this:
Those are indeed awful crimes and perhaps Rome should apologise. But I would like a better link to demonstrate this 30,000 between 1950 and 1980 you described - a claim totally unsubstantiated by the link you did provide
Then when I went to post I saw your "I misunderestimated" post and UPDATED MY POST to refer to THAT:
(Update: I see that you did attempt that - with the Daily Fail, no less. Then it must be right. Obviously you didn't bother reading the Wiki article or you'd have known it wasn't 30,000 and that the BBC documentary is saying nothing more than the Grauniad did in January 2011)
Your little legs do jerk every time there's an electric shock, don't they?

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:52 pm
by rubato
MajGenl.Meade wrote:You are the one that didn't bother reading it, you douchebag. You said "30,000" and then posted again to correct that, revealing your uselessness at reading your own link.

All the while I was busy writing this:
Those are indeed awful crimes and perhaps Rome should apologise. But I would like a better link to demonstrate this 30,000 between 1950 and 1980 you described - a claim totally unsubstantiated by the link you did provide
Then when I went to post I saw your "I misunderestimated" post and UPDATED MY POST to refer to THAT:
(Update: I see that you did attempt that - with the Daily Fail, no less. Then it must be right. Obviously you didn't bother reading the Wiki article or you'd have known it wasn't 30,000 and that the BBC documentary is saying nothing more than the Grauniad did in January 2011)
Your little legs do jerk every time there's an electric shock, don't they?

30,000 was in an earlier reference. But that does not help your case, douchebag. And the references to electric shock do nothing to address the point at hand.

No wonder you twitch so reflexively and defensively. There are more than enough sources to confirm the story is true. Whinging, wining, crying, and bitching just make your religion look worse and worse and worse. You will stop at nothing to lie and deny the truth.

If you had any dignity as a man or honesty as a historian you would admit that it is true and that the church has behaved like any gang of common criminals in lying, denying, and refusing to offer atonement and reparations to the victims.


The United States admitted its fault in locking up the Japanese in WWII and paid something for it. It was very late, and it was much too little, but it was more than your religion has ever done for the victims of its global brutality.


30,000 or 300,000; is the number the issue? Or is it the wrong, the evil of stealing children and selling them. Stop changing the subject and deal with the truth.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Do The Right Thing, Portugal Edition.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:56 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
If you had any dignity as a man or honesty as a historian you would admit that it is true
Oh... look what I wrote in the post about which you are getting your knickers (not to mention your excuses) into a twist:
Those are indeed awful crimes and perhaps Rome should apologise. But I would like a better link to demonstrate this 30,000 between 1950 and 1980 you described - a claim totally unsubstantiated by the link you did provide
Driven to simply repeating my own witty insults, eh? Well, never mind - you've been embarrassed enough.

(Yeah, the number wasn't that important except to demonstrate that you posted a link which said 300,000 and you didn't even read it yourself. Hence you started with 30,000 but you know, what's accuracy when there's a dead horse to beat up?)

:lol: