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Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:04 am
by Gob
Cast him as a woman, and you see immediately that women are the Jesuses of history.
Indeed, Jesus' role and resonance are so intensely female it makes me wonder. Was Jesus actually a woman?
Nonsense, you'll say. We know Jesus was a man. Know as in fact, written and drawn. Even those who reject Jesus' divinity take his Y chromosome on trust. But still, witting or unwitting, the margin for error is considerable.
Admittedly, much of the chatter around this is nutty. On the other hand there are the semantic vapours of misunderstood biblical texts – mention of Jesus' "breasts", for example, in Revelations. And there's half-plausible archaeological evidence, like the Christ figure (said, at AD30, to be the earliest known) adorned with lipstick, garlands and a pearl necklace.
But if postmodernism has taught us anything, it's that representation is perceptual. History is told by the victors and the victors who, for at least the last two millennia, have been male. So, just as early Australian painters found it impossible to paint Indigenous people as they really were; just as Napoleon is shown tall and imposing and Jesus is shown white Aryan, the familiar depictions of Jesus as a man could be, simply, wrong.
I've argued before that God, if we're to have just one, should be un-gendered. Christ, however, is essentially embodied. Indeed, he could be hermaphroditic or intersex. Religious types might point out here that gods are given; they're not exercises in design. And really that's my point. Any numinous reading of the given shows that, psychologically and symbolically, the Jesus figure is profoundly female.
Consider Easter. We know that Easter shares an etymology with oestrus – probably (according to Bede) also with Eostre, the Germanic goddess of spring and possibly with Ishtar, the 4th century BC Babylonian goddess of fertility (and war). Hence, Easter eggs.
We know, too, that Easter brilliantly conflates three separate strands of ancient pagan myth: the blood sacrifice, the thanksgiving for spring and the dying-and-rising saviour (such as Osiris, Dionysus, Adonis and Baal).
The continuity of these traditions doesn't make Christianity fake, or its appropriation of them theft. By my reckoning, the very universality of these mythic themes is their validation. But Jesus' take on these myths, and his role in their extraordinary synthesis, is conspicuously, undeniably female.
At every turn, the Jesus version inverts the heroic male mode into its yielding, female counterpart.
Jesus' sacrifice is of self, not of others. It is accepted but assiduously not willed. His resurrection results not from his warrior skills or strategic cunning, but from his refusal to exercise power that is in his grasp. His godly promise is not to help mortals win in war or life, as Zeus or Heracles might, but to teach us to reconceive the paradox of loss.
At every point – pun notwithstanding - Jesus is the penetrated, not the penetrator. This was the revolution. Christ doesn't simply oppose male power structures. He insists that the old power model – aggressive, domineering, objectifying – is illusory; that real power is openness, vulnerability, love. This is what made them so angry. It's why he had to die.
Even the way the death itself is turned into a parodic test, where the official lynch mob mocks the dying man by suggesting he prove his divinity by saving himself, became, in history, the woman's test - the ducking stool. Only by dying can Jesus show his persecutors their mistake.
The point here is that might cannot equal right. Torture cannot produce truth. Force can produce the appearance of harmony, but not its fact. You can't force the land into fertility, women into love or children into goodness.
This is self-evident. Yet for 2000 years we have accepted religious structures based on might. In her book When Women Were Priests, writer and scholar Karen Jo Torjesen argues convincingly that the early church, until the 3rd century, included numbers of women priests, but that this was stamped out by the hierarchy of 4th century Christian polemicists by exploiting the idea that a public woman was a sexual woman, and therefore to be derided.
This was by no means a Christian invention. The ancient cities of Greece and Rome strongly identified the citizen-hero of public life with maleness, reason, agency and religious leadership. Public women were prostitutes. Good women were shrouded in domesticity. Male honour, female shame.
The pre-existence of these paradigms might explain the church's perpetuation of them, but also makes more blindingly obvious that Jesus' virtues – the humility, modesty, chastity, patience, compassion and love he consistently opposes to male agency - are the virtues of womanhood.
The church's exile of women is surely itself a heresy, exiling Jesus.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:17 am
by Joe Guy
Jesus was a gay man. He only hung out with men.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:59 pm
by Big RR
Even the way the death itself is turned into a parodic test, where the official lynch mob mocks the dying man by suggesting he prove his divinity by saving himself, became, in history, the woman's test - the ducking stool. Only by dying can Jesus show his persecutors their mistake.
I don't get this; if the persecutors were taunting jesus to save himself, then they obviously believed he/she/it wasn't divine because you would never taunt an omnipotent being that way. By dying he proved his persecutors right.
As for the ducking stool, it was not a test, but casting a witch into the water was as they believed that the water would reject her. Many did die to "prove" their innocence, but others were pulled from the water right after it was seen she was not rejected, and therefore not a witch.
The article does make some good points about the feminine view of jesus and also of the role of women in the early Christian church. However, many of the stories of jesus include him teaching at synagogues and the temple and openly debating with and challenging men, something I don't think the jews would have countenanced at the time if jesus were a woman. Nevertheless, while jesus is embodied as a male, he is also seen as divine, and that divine nature may well be both genders or genderless.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:21 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Leaving aside the ridiculous crap that Jesus was a woman (such a sense of history nutcases have)...
I don't get this; if the persecutors were taunting jesus to save himself, then they obviously believed he/she/it wasn't divine because you would never taunt an
omnipotent being that way. By dying he proved his persecutors right.
Of course the power structure did not believe Jesus was in any way divine. Doesn't the Bible make that clear? One of their basic reasons for hating him was that he claimed equality with God, even identity, and in forgiving sin arrogated to himself (as they saw it) what belonged to God alone. They did not believe he could save himself - that was the point of taunting wasn't it?
By dying, he did not prove his persecutors right. His body experienced thirst, hunger, as any human body would. It also (obviously) could suffer death. His resurrection is what proved them wrong.
This kinda is Christianity 101 - basic stuff. It's part of what Christians believe and what non-Christians don't believe. In fact, Jesus was a prophet who simply died is a Moslem position.
Whether it's true or not is a different argument and let's not bother with it for now.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:43 pm
by Big RR
By dying, he did not prove his persecutors right. His body experienced thirst, hunger, as any human body would. It also (obviously) could suffer death. His resurrection is what proved them wrong.
Well that's the point, isn't it? The detractors could claim he was not divine because of his death--it's the resurrection that changes things.
I was not trying to debate Christian theology, only to question the writer of the quote in the OP that " Only by dying can Jesus show his persecutors their mistake." Indeed, it is the resurrection that shows their mistake; the death by itself is evidence of his humanity/mortality. Yes, those crucifying and taunting him did not believe he was in any way divine--yes, that was the point of the taunting. But his death didn't prove them wrong, the resurrection from that death did.
Comparing it to the drowning of a witch reveals that error; a witch could not be killed by water (which would reject her) and only a non witch could drown--so her dying proved she was innocent and not what her detractors accused her of; it proved her detractors wrong.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:02 pm
by Gob
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
By dying, he did not prove his persecutors right. His body experienced thirst, hunger, as any human body would. It also (obviously) could suffer death. His resurrection is what proved them wrong.
This kinda is Christianity 101 - basic stuff. It's part of what Christians believe and what non-Christians don't believe.
The fact that someone can believe that an omnipotent being, one capable of creating Universes, would need to opt for such a stupid charade to prove something, is a never ending source of befuzzlement to me.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:06 pm
by Big RR
While I can understand your questions and doubt, it hardly seems like a charade.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:10 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
C101 again. Gob. He didn't do that to prove the persecutors wrong - that's just a byproduct. In the same way, facts don't exist in order to prove rubato wrong - they just do
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:23 pm
by Gob
Big RR wrote:While I can understand your questions and doubt, it hardly seems like a charade.
charade
/ʃəˈrɑːd/
noun
1. an episode or act in the game of charades
2. (mainly Brit) an absurd act; travesty
Works for me.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:26 pm
by Gob
Meade, we are talking about an omnipotent being, creator of all that is known, wanting to make a point here? Not a drug addled halfwit... "Hey, I've got this great plan guys! I'll create a version of me, send him down to be born from a virgin, then when he grows up they can kill him so I can forgive them! That'll work!!"
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:41 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
A total distortion of theology which you, being an intelligent person, should eschew. (I know you don't need to look that up). There's an old analogy that has the judge levying punishment against a criminal but then stepping down from the bench and paying the fine himself. The criminal is of course free to change his ways or not
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:51 pm
by Gob
It's still, no matter how or which way you dress it up, not the actions of an omnipotent being.
But you know we'll never agree on this.

Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:09 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Sad to say. But any time I need the inside scoop on what omnipotent beings do, I'll know who to ask

Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:20 pm
by Gob
Thanks mate.

Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:18 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
would need to opt for such a stupid charade to prove something, is a never ending source of befuzzlement to me.
I believe he/she/it needed to put it in (simple) ways so we would understand.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:25 pm
by Lord Jim
What's a never ending source of befuzzlement (and bemusement) for
me is folks who are presumably not omnipotent nevertheless being absolutely cocksure of how an omnipotent being should operate...

Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:59 pm
by Long Run
Lord Jim wrote:What's a never ending source of befuzzlement (and bemusement) for
me is folks who are presumably not omnipotent nevertheless being absolutely cocksure of how an omnipotent being should operate...

This is too good a straight line . . .

Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:08 am
by Econoline
Hey, LR - Jim has never claimed to be omnipotent....
just omniscient...

Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:28 pm
by Big RR
Gob wrote:Big RR wrote:While I can understand your questions and doubt, it hardly seems like a charade.
charade
/ʃəˈrɑːd/
noun
1. an episode or act in the game of charades
2. (mainly Brit) an absurd act; travesty
Works for me.
Well Gob, here's where the "common language breaks down--the second definition of "Charade" in the American Heritage dictionary is "a readily perceived pretense" not an "absurd act". It's slightly different, but I hardly see going through the pain and suffering of a crucifixion as a pretense of any sort, even though I could understand how someone could call it absurd.
Re: Jesus, what a gal!!
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:17 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
I'd like to see Gob use the word "charade" in the sense of definition #2 above. I've never in all my years as a Brit heard it used in that way. Big RR's 'readily perceived pretense' is a normal usage in the YooK.
A charade (not the game) may be absurd but not necessarily so. The assumption in examples is always that the observer did indeed realize it was a charade and therefore readily perceived it as pretense - hence it may in some sense said to be absurd because it was immediately unbelievable.
But suppose two people conduct a charade for some purpose and nobody realises it is pretense. In that case, it is not absurd but remains a charade because the two people who acted it out knew that it was.
Both definitions are therefore flawed.