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Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:31 am
by Gob
Girls at a church-run children's home were routinely drugged, locked up and physically, emotionally and sexually abused, a review has found.


Image

Hundreds of girls were sent to Kendall house in Gravesend in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, before it closed in 1986.

The independent review set up by the Bishop of Rochester said the home was a place where cruelty was normalised.

It found girls were heavily sedated and placed in straitjackets. The Church of England has apologised.

In a report the inquiry team said: "The findings are harrowing."

The home was "a place where control, containment and sometimes cruelty were normalised."

The review found girls as young as 11 were "routinely and often without any initial medical assessment, given antidepressants, sedatives and anti-psychotic medication".

Drugs were administered in dosages exceeding usual prescribed adult levels to control girls' behaviour, placing them in a constant stupor, and restricting their ability to communicate, the report said.

The review found: "The effects of the drugs also increased their vulnerability to emotional, physical and in a smaller number of cases, sexual abuse".

On at least two occasions girls were placed in straitjackets and others were threatened with transfer to a local mental health hospital, the report said.

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:50 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Yeah, we all know things like that never happen in the secular world. Myself, I think it means this is why we need proper medical inspections by law.

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:02 pm
by Lord Jim
we all know things like that never happen in the secular world
Absolutely.

That's why there are no cases of public school teachers sexually abusing students...

Why We Should Have Secular Care Services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:47 pm
by RayThom
Phew!, that was close. At first I thought this was going to be yet another scathing indictment against the catholic church.

Thank God it's only those wacky Anglicans this time.

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:04 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Lord Jim wrote:
we all know things like that never happen in the secular world
Absolutely.

That's why there are no cases of public school teachers sexually abusing students...
Or day care workers. :(

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:04 pm
by rubato
Well, in the secular world we don't have multi-billion dollar international organizations which systematically facilitate and cover up the crimes for generation after generation.

In the secular world we have criminal investigations and civil trials. Prisons and financial reparations.



yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:38 pm
by Big RR
And plenty of broad based cover ups as well.

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:01 pm
by Lord Jim
Penn State anyone?

ETA:

And what was the name of that religious organization that conducted "The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male" for 40 years?

Oh yeah, it was that Christian cult group, "the U.S. Public Health Service"...

A bunch of scientists involved in that one....

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:45 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
rubato wrote:Well, in the secular world we don't have multi-billion dollar international organizations which systematically facilitate and cover up the crimes for generation after generation.
That would be the US government, no?
:shrug

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:33 pm
by rubato
Lord Jim wrote:Penn State anyone?

ETA:

And what was the name of that religious organization that conducted "The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male" for 40 years?

Oh yeah, it was that Christian cult group, "the U.S. Public Health Service"...

A bunch of scientists involved in that one....

Poor examples, both of them. In the Penn State case most of the coverup was due to Joe Pa, an individual, it only became an institutional coverup very late in the day.

The Tuskeegee case fails to support your contentions on multiple levels. First, no reliable and effective treatment was avail. until penicillin was released for use by the general public in 1947, the study was cancelled in 1972 or 15 years later. And the government didn't cover it up and lie about it like the Vatican does about child rape they admitted fault and paid reparations.
1945
Penicillin accepted as treatment of choice for syphilis.

1947
USPHS establishes "Rapid Treatment Centers" to treat syphilis; men in study are not treated, but syphilis declines.

1962
Beginning in 1947, 127 black medical students are rotated through unit doing the study.

1968
Concern raised about ethics of study by Peter Buxtun and others.

1969
CDC reaffirms need for study and gains local medical societies' support (AMA and NMA chapters officially support continuation of study).

1972
First news articles condemn studies.

Study ends.

1973
Congress holds hearings and a class-action lawsuit is filed on behalf of the study participants.

1974
A $10 million out-of-court settlement is reached and the U.S. government promised to give lifetime medical benefits and burial services to all living participants. The Tuskegee Health Benefit Program (THBP) was established to provide these services.

1975
Wives, widows and offspring were added to the program.

1995
The program was expanded to include health as well as medical benefits.

1997
On May 16th President Clinton apologizes on behalf of the Nation.

1999
Tuskegee University National Center for Bioethics in Research and Health Care hosts 1st Annual Commemoration of the Presidential Apology.

2001
President's Council on Bioethics was established.

2004
CDC funds 10 million dollar cooperative agreement to continue work at Tuskegee University National Center for Bioethics in Research and Health Care.

2004
The last U.S. Public Health Service Syphilis Study at Tuskegee participant dies on January 16.

2006
Tuskegee University holds formal opening of Bioethics Center.

2007
CDC hosts Commemorating and Transforming the Legacy of the United States Public Health Service (USPHS) Syphilis Study at Tuskegee.

2009
The last widow receiving THBP benefits dies on January 27.
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm


Both of these cases show that secular law in the end did the right thing. The Vatican has zero record of spontaneous accountability. When the government of Ireland was investigating Catholic rapes of children the reaction of the Vatican was to coverup and complain that "they have no right to investigate us".

yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:34 pm
by rubato
And there is no parallel in secular society of this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... use-claims
'Endemic' rape and abuse of Irish children in Catholic care, inquiry finds
Beatings and humiliation by nuns and priests were common at institutions that held up to 30,000 children, Ryan report states

Henry McDonald, Ireland correspondent

Wednesday 20 May 2009 11.40 EDT
Last modified on Wednesday 20 May 2009 12.29 EDT

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Rape and sexual molestation were "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages, a report revealed today.

The nine-year investigation found that Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls in the Irish Republic, while government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rape and humiliation.

The high court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. Police were called to the news conference amid angry scenes as victims were prevented from attending.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families – a category that often included unmarried mothers – were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last facilities shut in the 1990s.

The findings prompted the new Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to say that it took "courage" for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions. In an interview to be broadcast tonight on ITV News at Ten, he said: "I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they'd rather not look at. That takes courage, and also we shouldn't forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did."

The Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Isoca), an organisation set up to help victims, condemned the newly appointed head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales for his remarks.

"Rubbish is too kind of word for what the archbishop has said. I believe I have heard this kind of twaddle uttered by politicians in Ireland like Bertie Ahern, the former prime minister. It is the verbiage of un-reason and it leaves me cold. What the Archbishop really has to do is take a long hard look at the character and nature of the people he is talking about and ask himself if they are capable of being good," said Patrick Walsh.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

The report concluded that when confronted with evidence of sex abuse, religious authorities responded by transferring offenders to another location, where in many instances they were free to abuse again.

"There was evidence that such men took up teaching positions sometimes within days of receiving dispensations because of serious allegations or admissions of sexual abuse," the report said. "The safety of children in general was not a consideration."

The Catholic church had been steeling itself for the report, which was repeatedly delayed by church lawsuits, missing documentation and alleged government obstruction.

The Christian Brothers delayed the investigation for more than a year with a lawsuit that successfully defended their members' right to anonymity in all references in the report, even in cases in which individual Christian Brothers had been convicted of sexual and physical attacks on children.

The church had already been under fire over the sexual misbehaviour of several priests in various Irish parishes. The commission's experts have sought to produce a comprehensive portrait of sexual, physical and emotional damage inflicted on the child victims. The thousands of survivors said they had no safe way to tell their stories until the investigation began because much of Irish Catholic society regarded them as liars.

Isoca today said it was now up to the Vatican to investigate its religious orders in the republic.

John Kelly, the Isoca co-ordinator in Dublin, said: "Now that the Ryan [Laffoy] commission is finished, we call upon ... Pope Benedict XVI to convene a special consistory court to fully investigate the activities of the Catholic religious orders in Ireland.

"Amongst other things, such a court could establish the whereabouts of Irish state assets that were misappropriated over many years by the religious orders and make restitution to the Irish state exchequer."

During the commission's investigations, oral evidence was collected from more than 1,000 people, mainly aged from their 50s to 70s.

Several hundred travelled back to Ireland from the US and Australia to describe their childhood of terror and intimidation.

One victim, John Walsh, of Isoca, called the report a hatchet job that left open wounds gaping. "The little comfort we have is the knowledge that it vindicated the victims who were raped and sexually abused," he said.

"I'm very angry, very bitter, and feel cheated and deceived. I would have never opened my wounds if I'd known this was going to be the end result. It has devastated me and will devastate most victims because there is no criminal proceedings and no accountability whatsoever."

The commission's original judge, Mary Laffoy, resigned from her post in 2003 over claims that the Irish department of education – which was in charge of inspecting the orphanages and industrial schools – was refusing to hand over documents to her.
... "

yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:36 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
:shock: Don't forget - Joe Paterno was a Catholic!!!!!!! :o

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:37 pm
by rubato
Or this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Spain.html
300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

By Polly Dunbar for MailOnline
Updated: 05:55 EST, 16 October 2011

Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.

The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.

Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.
Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.
Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.

In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.
RELATED ARTICLES

Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates.

In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up.

Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people.

‘There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’
Reunited: Randy Ryder with Manoli Pagador, who believes she may be his real mother

Reunited: Randy Ryder with Manoli Pagador, who believes she may be his real mother

Experts believe the cases may account for up to 15 per cent of the total adoptions that took place in Spain between 1960 and 1989.

It began as a system for taking children away from families deemed politically dangerous to the regime of General Franco, which began in 1939. The system continued after the dictator’s death in 1975 as the Catholic church continued to retain a powerful influence on public life, particularly in social services.

It was not until 1987 that the Spanish government, instead of hospitals, began to regulate adoptions.

The scandal came to light after two men, Antonio Barroso and Juan Luis Moreno, discovered they had been stolen as babies.

Mr Moreno’s ‘father’ confessed on his deathbed to having bought him as a baby from a priest in Zaragoza in northern Spain. He told his son he had been accompanied on the trip by Mr Barroso’s parents, who bought Antonio at the same time for 200,000 pesetas – a huge sum at the time.

‘That was the price of an apartment back then,’ Mr Barroso said. ‘My parents paid it in instalments over the course of ten years because they did not have enough money.’
Bought for cash: Journalist Katya Adler with Juan Luis Moreno, who was sold as a baby

Bought for cash: Journalist Katya Adler with Juan Luis Moreno, who was sold as a baby

DNA tests have proved that the couple who brought up Mr Barroso were not his biological parents and the nun who sold him has admitted to doing so.

When the pair made their case public, it prompted mothers all over the country to come forward with their own experiences of being told their babies had died, but never believing it. One such woman was Manoli Pagador, who has begun searching for her son.

A BBC documentary, This World: Spain’s Stolen Babies, follows her efforts to discover if he is Randy Ryder, a stolen baby who was brought up in Texas and is now aged 40.

In some cases, babies’ graves have been exhumed, revealing bones that belong to adults or animals. Some of the graves contained nothing at all.

The BBC documentary features an interview with an 89-year-old woman named Ines Perez, who admitted that a priest encouraged her to fake a pregnancy so she could be given a baby girl due to be born at Madrid’s San Ramon clinic in 1969. ‘The priest gave me padding to wear on my stomach,’ she says.

It is claimed that the San Ramon clinic was one of the major centres for the practice.

Many mothers who gave birth there claim that when they asked to see their child after being told it had died, they were shown a baby’s corpse that appeared to be freezing cold.

The BBC programme shows photographs taken in the Eighties of a dead baby kept in a freezer, allegedly to show grieving mothers.

Despite hundreds of families of babies who disappeared in Spanish hospitals calling on the government to open an investigation into the scandal, no nationally co-ordinated probe has taken place.

As a result of amnesty laws passed after Franco’s death, crimes that took place during his regime are usually not examined. Instead, regional prosecutors across the country are investigating each story on a case-by-case basis, with 900 currently under review.

But Ms Adler says: ‘There is very little political will to get to the bottom of the situation.’

There are believed to be thousands more cases that will never come to light because the stolen children fear their adoptive parents will be seen as criminals.

Many of the families of stolen babies have taken DNA tests in the hope of eventually being matched with their children. Some matches have already been made but, without a nationally co-ordinated database, reuniting lost relatives will be a very difficult process.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4EQFpsSZy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:39 pm
by rubato
Human being are imperfect and our institutions are imperfect as well but we never had anything like justice until we overthrew the church.

We never had anything like useful 'knowledge' until we overthrew biblical scholasticism and replaced it with empirical science.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:54 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Image

Here you go, rubato. Proof positive that the Roman empire would have had men on the moon by 1000 A.D. if it hadn't been for those pesky Christians!

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:13 am
by rubato
And nothing on point.

No surprise there.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:28 am
by Lord Jim
Gee, I just used this, and here's another spot where it fits perfectly:

Image

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:35 pm
by Guinevere
rubato wrote:Or this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Spain.html
300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

By Polly Dunbar for MailOnline
Updated: 05:55 EST, 16 October 2011

Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.

The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.

Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.
Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.
Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.

In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.
RELATED ARTICLES

Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates.

In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up.

Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people.

‘There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’
Reunited: Randy Ryder with Manoli Pagador, who believes she may be his real mother

Reunited: Randy Ryder with Manoli Pagador, who believes she may be his real mother

Experts believe the cases may account for up to 15 per cent of the total adoptions that took place in Spain between 1960 and 1989.

It began as a system for taking children away from families deemed politically dangerous to the regime of General Franco, which began in 1939. The system continued after the dictator’s death in 1975 as the Catholic church continued to retain a powerful influence on public life, particularly in social services.

It was not until 1987 that the Spanish government, instead of hospitals, began to regulate adoptions.

The scandal came to light after two men, Antonio Barroso and Juan Luis Moreno, discovered they had been stolen as babies.

Mr Moreno’s ‘father’ confessed on his deathbed to having bought him as a baby from a priest in Zaragoza in northern Spain. He told his son he had been accompanied on the trip by Mr Barroso’s parents, who bought Antonio at the same time for 200,000 pesetas – a huge sum at the time.

‘That was the price of an apartment back then,’ Mr Barroso said. ‘My parents paid it in instalments over the course of ten years because they did not have enough money.’
Bought for cash: Journalist Katya Adler with Juan Luis Moreno, who was sold as a baby

Bought for cash: Journalist Katya Adler with Juan Luis Moreno, who was sold as a baby

DNA tests have proved that the couple who brought up Mr Barroso were not his biological parents and the nun who sold him has admitted to doing so.

When the pair made their case public, it prompted mothers all over the country to come forward with their own experiences of being told their babies had died, but never believing it. One such woman was Manoli Pagador, who has begun searching for her son.

A BBC documentary, This World: Spain’s Stolen Babies, follows her efforts to discover if he is Randy Ryder, a stolen baby who was brought up in Texas and is now aged 40.

In some cases, babies’ graves have been exhumed, revealing bones that belong to adults or animals. Some of the graves contained nothing at all.

The BBC documentary features an interview with an 89-year-old woman named Ines Perez, who admitted that a priest encouraged her to fake a pregnancy so she could be given a baby girl due to be born at Madrid’s San Ramon clinic in 1969. ‘The priest gave me padding to wear on my stomach,’ she says.

It is claimed that the San Ramon clinic was one of the major centres for the practice.

Many mothers who gave birth there claim that when they asked to see their child after being told it had died, they were shown a baby’s corpse that appeared to be freezing cold.

The BBC programme shows photographs taken in the Eighties of a dead baby kept in a freezer, allegedly to show grieving mothers.

Despite hundreds of families of babies who disappeared in Spanish hospitals calling on the government to open an investigation into the scandal, no nationally co-ordinated probe has taken place.

As a result of amnesty laws passed after Franco’s death, crimes that took place during his regime are usually not examined. Instead, regional prosecutors across the country are investigating each story on a case-by-case basis, with 900 currently under review.

But Ms Adler says: ‘There is very little political will to get to the bottom of the situation.’

There are believed to be thousands more cases that will never come to light because the stolen children fear their adoptive parents will be seen as criminals.

Many of the families of stolen babies have taken DNA tests in the hope of eventually being matched with their children. Some matches have already been made but, without a nationally co-ordinated database, reuniting lost relatives will be a very difficult process.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4EQFpsSZy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

yrs,
rubato
I don't have time to give you links right now, but I'm pretty sure the systemic removal of native american children from their families by the US Government so they could be indoctrinated into christianity and become more "white" and less "Native" was equally as repulsive and offensive, likely as widespread, and probably even more harmful in the long-run (in the context of destruction of Native language/culture/heritage/etc).

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:12 pm
by rubato
The point is not that secular institutions have never done anything wrong, of course they have. The point is that secular institutions are at the end of the day subject to democratic control and public scrutiny which means they are more limited than religious institutions which claim for themselves ultimate moral authority and use that claim to bar from public scrutiny any of their actions, forever. As to the forced adoptions of Native American children the government was only partially to blame:


http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.c ... tion-65966
The Indian Adoption Project was a federal program that acquired Indian children from 1958 to 1967 with the help of the prestigious Child Welfare League of America; a successor organization, the Adoption Resource Exchange of North America, functioned from 1966 until the early 1970s. Churches were also involved. In the Southwest, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints took thousands of Navajo children to live in Mormon homes and work on Mormon farms, and the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations swept many more Indian youngsters into residential institutions they ran nationwide, from which some children were then fostered or adopted out. As many as one third of Indian children were separated from their families between 1941 and 1967, according to a 1976 report by the Association on American Indian Affairs.
Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.c ... tion-65966


yrs,
rubato

Re: Why we should have secular care services

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:17 pm
by Big RR
until penicillin was released for use by the general public in 1947, the study was cancelled in 1972 or 15 years later.
Just a small poibt, but 72-45 is 25, not 15. And it is outrageous it continued one year, let alone 25.

As for governmental complicity in anything, since the government is our last refuge, I hold them more morally culpable than institutions I do not rely on or which do not act in my name.