Marriage, Procreation, & Related Topics

[dgs49]

I got a phone call in the wee hours this morning - 0210 for you military folks - advising me that my nephew's GF had just given birth to a girl.

The nephew, Greg, will be 26 in April, unemployed (near unemployable), and his POSSLQ is about the same age - works as an accountant for a local bank. Without going into a lot of detail, she is much too good for Greg, but love is what it is, eh?

It appears that this child was conceived on the day when my father-in-law (Greg's grandfather, a.k.a. "Nonno") passed away, which is rather comforting to those of us who take comfort in "the circle of life." Whatever that means. Greg & the POSSLQ are now living in Nonno's house, which was sort-of purchased for him by his father (my brother-in-law) when the estate was finally settled. I think Greg is paying on a modest mortgage taken out by his father (a true assumption could not take place with Greg unemployed) at the time when he "purchased" the house from the estate.

Both Greg and his POSSLQ were born and raised Catholic, though neither one of them has been in a church on any day other than Christmas, Easter, a wedding or a funeral for at least 8 years. When Greg proudly announced that he was going to be a daddy "we" pretty much expected that news to be followed by word of an accelerated wedding. But the word never came. He/they did ask a couple of the young adults in the family to be the Godmother and Godfather of the soon-to-be kid, but the question of whether and why any priest would formally baptize the bastard kid of an unmarried couple who never go to church (neither "God parent" goes to church either) was never addressed.

I guess the question is, given this rather fucked up state of affairs and the current state of American culture and mores, how should the parents of this child comport themselves? Amy Vanderbilt, you died too soon.

Understand that there WILL BE a large, formal church wedding, with the POSSLQ wearing a stunning white gown, blah, blah, blah. This is freely and openly discussed, though no plans have been made. Furthermore, the suitable venues for such an affair generally are booked a year in advance, in this area. The wedding, when it happens, will be paid for almost exclusively by Greg's parents, as the POSSLQ's parents are impecunious, divorced, and not living in this geographical area.

I have been goading Greg to (1) register and start going to a Church, (2) get married by a JP, if only to legitimize the kid, and (3) get married in church as soon as conveniently possible. And of course, (4) get serious about getting a job. [Greg's "plan" is to take an exam in March to become an apprentice electrician. He knows nothing about electricity and is functionally illiterate. There is no indication in the world that the economy has picked up to the extent that the world needs any more apprentice electricians, or journeymen for that matter. Which is why I put the word "plan" in quotation marks].

Greg is my "God son." So this is none of my business, but kinda sorta a little bit of my business.

Is there anything wrong with this picture? Or is the Happy Couple behaving in a way that is "cool," for 2011?

[oldr_n_wsr]

but the question of whether and why any priest would formally baptize the bastard kid of an unmarried couple who never go to church

I am someone who was brought up Catholic and doesn't go to church. We got married in a Church by a priest and had our kids baptised. Why? I guess it's just tradition or hedging ones bets?
I don't see where this situation is any different than a lot of peoples situation. While not ideal, the Catholic church would probably perform the ceremony in the hope that "someday" the sheep will return to the flock. Plus there is a charge for performing the ceremony so they get to collect some cash not that that is the main reason they do it.

And I hope you don't go calling the kid "bastard" around other people of your family. The kid did nothing and having a stigma attached to him, could be damaging. In this day and age with how many kids being born out of wedlock and single parent families (through divorce), I don't think it's that big a deal. Not something I want to happen to my kids, but if it did, we would accept it, deal with it and love the grandchild.

[Big RR]

I have to agree with oldr; indeed, from what I understand of roman catholicism, I can't see why a priest would deny a child the sacrament of baptism (isn't there still the idea than an unbaptized soul cannot (or may not) enter heaven (left to limbo or god's grace depending how traditional one is). The "sins" of the parent should never be visited on the child and from the way you describe the father, this child will need all the "grace" and support of the extended family she can get. Remember, parents may be bastards, but innocent children? Never!

[Scooter]

When I was growing up, the priests in our parish would routinely deny baptism and other sacraments to children whose parents were living together unmarried, or who had divorced and remarried. Whether the practice was widespread, or whether it remains the case today, I don't know.

[dgs49]

Notice I said "formal" baptism.

Of course any priest would baptize the kid if asked. In fact, Catholic belief is that any Christian can baptize simply by going through the ritual. This is why converting Christians do not have to be re-baptized as Catholics.

But to do it "right" right now requires that the parents be registered with a parish, that the godparents give evidence of being Catholic, and that both the parents and godparents undergo a bit of orientation.

The main objection I think they would run into is the fact that they are voluntarily living in sin, right now. I have seen priests, confronted with this (or a similar) situation, offer to marry the couple on the spot so that they are no longer living in sin, then if they want to have a formal wedding, going along with it as a renewal of the vows.

Perversely, many of us "Catholics" maintain the view that The Church really has no control over whether we consider ourselves to be Catholic. I recall an excommunicated public official in Massachusetts (I don't recall her name) telling a reporter that, "The Bishop can no more tell me I'm not Catholic than he can tell me I'm not Italian!"

[oldr_n_wsr]

But to do it "right" right now requires that the parents be registered with a parish, that the godparents give evidence of being Catholic, and that both the parents and godparents undergo a bit of orientation.

Um uh, I don't think the God parents need to prove they are Catholic. My daughters God mother is Lutheran and I don't remember the subject even coming up when we went to get her baptised. Don't remember any kind of orientation for us or the Godparents when either of my kids got baptised.

I do remember many years ago (40??) when my father (Catholic) was asked by his best friends (Lutheran) to be the Godfather of their daughter. He told his priest about it and ended up in "heated" discussion with teh priest about how my father should not accept the position. Dad told the priest that he was honored to be chosen and was going to be the God father no matter the priests (and possibly the church's) opinion.

[rubato]

Journeyman electrician is a pretty good occupation.

I hope he's successful.

I don't understand people having kids who are not married or have made an equivalent commitment (but considering the legal consequences they should just tie it up.). Someone forget to tell them about birth control? Even a few Catholics have to have heard of it.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

I;m so glad I don't suffer from religion.

'm so glad that any kid the Hatch has won't need an aging child molester in a frock to pour water onto it to "legitimise" it.

[Big RR]

Of course any priest would baptize the kid if asked. In fact, Catholic belief is that any Christian can baptize simply by going through the ritual. This is why converting Christians do not have to be re-baptized as Catholics.

I seem to recall a flap when Lucy Johnson ( a methodist I believe) was "rebaptized" (or, as some described it, baptized in case the original one didn't really take) before she married (and I think converted) in a catholic mass. Forty some years ago, so maybe it changed.

Um uh, I don't think the God parents need to prove they are Catholic.

My guess it that it depends in the priest; I recall one priest telling me that one of the godparents had to be a confirmed catholic, but I (a non catholic) was never asked about my religion by the priests in the three baptisms I was a godparent at (and i did go to an orientation once).

[dales]

Journeyman electrician is a pretty good occupation.

I hope he's successful.

I don't understand people having kids who are not married or have made an equivalent commitment (but considering the legal consequences they should just tie it up.). Someone forget to tell them about birth control? Even a few Catholics have to have heard of it.

yrs,
rubato

[Reality Bytes]

Well I work for an Anglican Vicar so we're a bit less rigid - any child can be baptised, Godparents are required to have been baptised themselves however if they haven't been we will still allow them to stand as sponsors for the child what they cannot do is make the promises to God on behalf of the child during the baptism ceremony. Whether the parents are married or not doesn't even factor into it.

[loCAtek]

I;m so glad I don't suffer from religion.

'm so glad that any kid the Hatch has won't need an aging child molester in a frock to pour water onto it to "legitimise" it.

Good thing, that's a fairy tale only bigots against religion believe in.

Never mind, you're not her da, anywayZ.

[dgs49]

The theoretical purpose of being a "God parent" is, in case the parents come to be out of the picture (killed or die early or whatever), the Godparents are expected to ensure that the child will [continue to be] raised as a Catholic/Christian. Indeed, I think it was customary in past times for the God parents to be named in the parents' wills as the ones who would raise the kid in the event of their untimely demise.

Thus it is entirely appropriate for the Church to confirm their bona fides prior to the baptism.

Obviously, the role of Godparents has evolved into a symbolic one, indicating nothing more than that the parents like and respect the selectees.

Without going all dogmatic on all of yins, the American Catholic Church emphatically does NOT require baptized Christian to be baptized again in the Church. They go through an RCIA program (can't for the life of me remember what the initials stand for) which culminates in the sacrament of reconciliation, followed immediately by one's first Holy Eucharist. Confirmation is optional.

[Big RR]

Isn't there something known as a "conditional" (or something else) baptism for people who were baptized in a faith not recognized (and thus might not really be baptized); I'm thinking of religions like the mormons who claim to be christian, but this claim is disputed by other christian religions. I think this is what happened to Lucy Johnson when she converted.

As for godparents, I think some cultures recognize it as a choice of guardian should both parents die. My wife's family is Puerto Rican, and I have heard of cases (at least through the late 60s/early 70s) where godparents will get custody over blood relatives based on this presumption.

As for RC "bona fides", I have been a godfather 4 times in RC ceremonies, and have never been asked to prove anything, so I guess it varies from priest to priest/parish to parish. The RC church is great on keeping records, with all information being maintained by the church you are baptized in (according to my friend who is a priest), so I'm sure the information could easily be gotten if needed (my wife had her "file" pulled before we got married), so it wouldn't surprise me that some would require checking this.

[@meric@nwom@n]

I don't understand kids without a plan of some sort.

I have a stepkid. Several actually but one in particular is worrisome. He dropped out of high school. Not his fault, of course, the administration clearly had it in for him. If you don't believe me just ask him. Just turned 22. Has not held a legitimate job to date. Frequently smells like pot. Lives with his mom and his live in SO. Live in SO has a bodacious set of tatas that she likes the world to see and thus dresses like a street walker. She sells Avon for a living. The 2 of them essentially function as housekeepers and chauffeurs for his mom. She supports them. Every time the phone rings I am afraid it is him calling to say he knocked her up. Husband and I have had long discussions on the topic of "what if". Mom kicks them out they are not coming here. I don't care if they live in a box by the river, I maintain it is time for him to learn life's lesson that manna does not flow from above. Husband has reluctantly agreed to this term.

If a baby is added to the pic, I don't know that the hell we are going to do.


Please send positve prayer for a reproductive issue of some sort for them

[Scooter]

If a baby is added to the pic, I don't know that the hell we are going to do.

Explain to them that adoption exists precisely in order to find good homes for children whose parents are unable to properly provide for their care and support, and therefore the fact that they have managed to reproduce is not going to be seen as an excuse for them to sponge off of you. Then call children's services to alert them to the fact that a baby is about to be born to a couple who do not have the means or the inclination to properly provide for it.

[Sean]

They go through an RCIA program (can't for the life of me remember what the initials stand for)....

Re-Catholicisation Indoctrination Adventure?

[rubato]

If a baby is added to the pic, I don't know that the hell we are going to do.

Explain to them that adoption exists precisely in order to find good homes for children whose parents are unable to properly provide for their care and support, and therefore the fact that they have managed to reproduce is not going to be seen as an excuse for them to sponge off of you. Then call children's services to alert them to the fact that a baby is about to be born to a couple who do not have the means or the inclination to properly provide for it.

We could have a 'pound' for babies like we do for dogs! People can drop off their surplus babies and deposit them in little wire cages for people to come and check them out. We could have a 'pound baby of the week' like we do a "pound puppy of the week' in the local newspaper.

The 'fear-biters' and un-trainables would have to be scragged, naturally, but the rest would get good homes!

Genius.

yrs,
rubato

[@meric@nwom@n]

If a baby is added to the pic, I don't know that the hell we are going to do.

Explain to them that adoption exists precisely in order to find good homes for children whose parents are unable to properly provide for their care and support, and therefore the fact that they have managed to reproduce is not going to be seen as an excuse for them to sponge off of you. Then call children's services to alert them to the fact that a baby is about to be born to a couple who do not have the means or the inclination to properly provide for it.

We could have a 'pound' for babies like we do for dogs! People can drop off their surplus babies and deposit them in little wire cages for people to come and check them out. We could have a 'pound baby of the week' like we do a "pound puppy of the week' in the local newspaper.

The 'fear-biters' and un-trainables would have to be scragged, naturally, but the rest would get good homes!

Genius.

yrs,
rubato

You aren't being as humorous as you think you are. There are places where unwanted children are dropped off. One of those places is a nursing home, there are many, that specialized in taking care of children.

[dgs49]

The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (often abbreviated RCIA) is the process through which interested adults and older children are gradually introduced to the Roman Catholic faith and way of life.