If there is one thing that negatively characterizes the American psyche it is our destructive self-indulgence. We want to feel good, especially about ourselves, and don't particularly care how it happens.
Our Food Industry has made us a country of fat, lazy tubs of lard, by giving us food that is delicious, loaded with calories, and yet provides minimal nutrition. And we don't give a shit whether what goes into our mouths is nutritious or is killing us, as long as it gives us a bit of momentary pleasure in the consumption.
American education is fixated on making us feel good and making it almost impossible to fail, because failure is harmful to the psyche. Our grading system is a joke in which merely showing up warrants a "B" ("above average"), and anything more than that results in absurdly-escalated accolades. In my school district, 2/3 of the students are in "honors" English. It is considered a great accomplishment in inner city schools when they artificially lower the "dropout" rate, which generally means bribing the worst of the worst into remaining the school system and fucking things up for everyone around them.
Our kids lead the world in self esteem, but trail third world countries in mastery of actual academic subjects. They are great at their game consoles and retarded in the classroom.
Our colleges will accept anyone who can pay the tuition, and the only students who are academically challenged are the ones who masochisitically choose to do so. Most are studying garbage subjects that challenge no one, least of all the students. Most college degrees are worthless, because they represent nothing but having the resources to utterly waste four or five years and a hundred thousand dollars of borrowed money.
Our entertainment caters to the very lowest common denominator. "Reality TV' has brought out the exibitionist and voyeur to an extent that if we were not a nation of idiots it would be a national embarrassment. Our movies are crap, our music industry cranks out 80% garbage. Our professional sports are an embarrassment, and what we, as a society, are doing to our kids with the mountain of idiotic, time-wasting games and competitions is criminal.
And every kid gets a fucking trophy.
Fortunately, Western Europe is not much better, and is declining faster that we are.
The Great American Flaw
Re: The Great American Flaw
Except when it comes to getting into the top-tier universities which are more competitive now than ever in history.dgs49 wrote:
"...
American education is fixated on making us feel good and making it almost impossible to fail, because failure is harmful to the psyche. Our grading system is a joke in which merely showing up warrants a "B" ("above average"), and anything more than that results in absurdly-escalated accolades. In my school district, 2/3 of the students are in "honors" English. It is considered a great accomplishment in inner city schools when they artificially lower the "dropout" rate, which generally means bribing the worst of the worst into remaining the school system and fucking things up for everyone around them.
We have more of the top 50 universities in the world than anyone else. Than several anyone else's together. This could change if we stop funding education and do what you suggest instead.dgs49 wrote: Our colleges will accept anyone who can pay the tuition, and the only students who are academically challenged are the ones who masochisitically choose to do so. Most are studying garbage subjects that challenge no one, least of all the students. Most college degrees are worthless, because they represent nothing but having the resources to utterly waste four or five years and a hundred thousand dollars of borrowed money.
I agree with John Keegan, the great military historian who has seen with more depth into the educational systems of the US and Europe than you have. Education should be funded lavishly, wastefully. It is the surest route to a better future than the past. I am happy to sacrifice to have $1,000 thrown away in education, or even $10,000, because I know for certain that the Steve Wozniaks, Carey Mullises, Stanley Prusiners, Linus Paulings, of the future will ultimately be created by it and all of us will reap the rewards.
yrs,
rubato
Re: The Great American Flaw
At a faster rate, but from a better start point, we have a way to go to catch you up.dgs49 wrote:I
Fortunately, Western Europe is not much better, and is declining faster that we are.
BUT. What good will it do you if we do? Why do you see that as "fortunate"?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: The Great American Flaw
What percentage of the population benefits in any way from the top tier universities? How are they measured? Certainly not by the end product, but by the students who pass through them. Most of them would get an education if you locked them up in a box for four years.
Wasted money is wasted money. The primary and secondary education establishment in this country has been sucking ever more and more from the public fisc for decades, yet the product becomes more and more worthless. The top students learn in spite of the schools and teachers, not because of them.
Teachers' unions are the greatest impediment to education, followed closely by clueless, lazy, inattentive parents.
Wasted money is wasted money. The primary and secondary education establishment in this country has been sucking ever more and more from the public fisc for decades, yet the product becomes more and more worthless. The top students learn in spite of the schools and teachers, not because of them.
Teachers' unions are the greatest impediment to education, followed closely by clueless, lazy, inattentive parents.
Re: The Great American Flaw
I've never read such drivel.dgs49 wrote:What percentage of the population benefits in any way from the top tier universities? How are they measured? Certainly not by the end product, but by the students who pass through them. Most of them would get an education if you locked them up in a box for four years.
Wasted money is wasted money. The primary and secondary education establishment in this country has been sucking ever more and more from the public fisc for decades, yet the product becomes more and more worthless. The top students learn in spite of the schools and teachers, not because of them.
Teachers' unions are the greatest impediment to education, followed closely by clueless, lazy, inattentive parents.
Please show any evidence for any of the above Dave.
Or shall we just take it that you believe your prejudices, envy and bigotry do not require proof.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: The Great American Flaw
You can make the world better or worse. You have chosen the latter. Bitterness, meanness, and nastiness never left anything but evil.
"
It is because modern education is so seldom inspired by a great hope that it so
seldom achieves great results. The wish to preserve the past rather that the hope of
creating the future dominates the minds of those who control the teaching of the
young.
"
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)
The United States has been the political, cultural, scientific, and educational superpower of the world for the 20th century because of people like me; people who believe in us and work at it.
yrs,
rubato
"
It is because modern education is so seldom inspired by a great hope that it so
seldom achieves great results. The wish to preserve the past rather that the hope of
creating the future dominates the minds of those who control the teaching of the
young.
"
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)
The United States has been the political, cultural, scientific, and educational superpower of the world for the 20th century because of people like me; people who believe in us and work at it.
yrs,
rubato
Re: The Great American Flaw
Gob,
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2010-06- ... P-post.pdf
I don't know how closely you follow educational trends in the U.S., but I've attached some good information. The linked article is from Texas, but it shows enough national data to corroborate my assertions that the U.S. throws more and more money into education (regardless of how calculated), with no significant improvement over time in student achievement - and starting from a point that was a national embarrassment when compared to other developed countries.
The ever-more ubiquitous and dominant teachers unions have fueled the vast increases in expenditures - their compensation and benefits galloping dramatically ahead of inflation - while fighting many of the obvious innovations that could have helped improve student performance. Most notably, these would be,
(1) Totally frustrating any attempts at measuring teacher performance in quantitative terms,
(2) Totally frustrating reasonable attempts to expel non-performing teachers,
(3) Refusing to even consider reasonable measures to lengthen the school day or the school year (which perversely continues to allow for a 10-12 week Summer vacation that originated when the majority of students were living on farms). Indeed, a typical school year in the U.S. is 180 days of "instruction," including many days reserved for testing and other non-academic matters. (I won't even get into the untold hours wasted on "sports" and other extracurricular pursuits which have no legitimate place in school).
(4) Promoting the addition of vast numbers of non-instructional staff (jobs which are often filled by burned-out teachers) to unburden teachers from things they don't want to be bothered with.
It cannot be credibly argued that the teachers and schools are the ONLY reasons for America's pathetic performance in overall educational achievement; our poor parenting and depraved culture are at least equally to blame. Also, the demographics play a significant role, as perverse government policies bring hordes of "disadvantaged" (from poor, single-parent households) and immigrant, non-English-speaking children into the System, but the public school establishment has done a lot more to feather its own figurative nest than it has to bring out meaningful reform over the past decades.
My differences with the rubato person regarding higher education are not as stark as they may seem. It is clear that our universities seem to offer the greatest opportunities in the world FOR THE BEST STUDENTS to exploit their intelligence and creative abilities to accomplish great things intellectually, technologically, and artistically. This has been the case for a long time, and probably will continue indefinitely. My observation is that for, let us say, the bottom 50% of students enrolled, college has become little more than a chance to have a lot of fun with minimal responsibility at someone else's expense. Even the ones who are theoretically paying their own way through student loans have no clue what the actual financial cost of the "experience" is as they go through it; they will learn with great regret after they graduate how much money was utterly wasted in inflated tuition, housing costs, and fees.
My European (mainly German and British) friends have described to me an educational system that is very competitive, includes no interscholastic sports, and where only the best students go on to university studies (at costs that are largely paid by government), and that is the way it should be. The American myth that every child has some sort of a right to a college education is unrealistic, counterproductive, and wasteful in the extreme. If half of the colleges and universities in the U.S. closed their doors tomorrow that would be a net positive development in American education, forcing the bottom half of our current crop of college students to grow up a little sooner.
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2010-06- ... P-post.pdf
I don't know how closely you follow educational trends in the U.S., but I've attached some good information. The linked article is from Texas, but it shows enough national data to corroborate my assertions that the U.S. throws more and more money into education (regardless of how calculated), with no significant improvement over time in student achievement - and starting from a point that was a national embarrassment when compared to other developed countries.
The ever-more ubiquitous and dominant teachers unions have fueled the vast increases in expenditures - their compensation and benefits galloping dramatically ahead of inflation - while fighting many of the obvious innovations that could have helped improve student performance. Most notably, these would be,
(1) Totally frustrating any attempts at measuring teacher performance in quantitative terms,
(2) Totally frustrating reasonable attempts to expel non-performing teachers,
(3) Refusing to even consider reasonable measures to lengthen the school day or the school year (which perversely continues to allow for a 10-12 week Summer vacation that originated when the majority of students were living on farms). Indeed, a typical school year in the U.S. is 180 days of "instruction," including many days reserved for testing and other non-academic matters. (I won't even get into the untold hours wasted on "sports" and other extracurricular pursuits which have no legitimate place in school).
(4) Promoting the addition of vast numbers of non-instructional staff (jobs which are often filled by burned-out teachers) to unburden teachers from things they don't want to be bothered with.
It cannot be credibly argued that the teachers and schools are the ONLY reasons for America's pathetic performance in overall educational achievement; our poor parenting and depraved culture are at least equally to blame. Also, the demographics play a significant role, as perverse government policies bring hordes of "disadvantaged" (from poor, single-parent households) and immigrant, non-English-speaking children into the System, but the public school establishment has done a lot more to feather its own figurative nest than it has to bring out meaningful reform over the past decades.
My differences with the rubato person regarding higher education are not as stark as they may seem. It is clear that our universities seem to offer the greatest opportunities in the world FOR THE BEST STUDENTS to exploit their intelligence and creative abilities to accomplish great things intellectually, technologically, and artistically. This has been the case for a long time, and probably will continue indefinitely. My observation is that for, let us say, the bottom 50% of students enrolled, college has become little more than a chance to have a lot of fun with minimal responsibility at someone else's expense. Even the ones who are theoretically paying their own way through student loans have no clue what the actual financial cost of the "experience" is as they go through it; they will learn with great regret after they graduate how much money was utterly wasted in inflated tuition, housing costs, and fees.
My European (mainly German and British) friends have described to me an educational system that is very competitive, includes no interscholastic sports, and where only the best students go on to university studies (at costs that are largely paid by government), and that is the way it should be. The American myth that every child has some sort of a right to a college education is unrealistic, counterproductive, and wasteful in the extreme. If half of the colleges and universities in the U.S. closed their doors tomorrow that would be a net positive development in American education, forcing the bottom half of our current crop of college students to grow up a little sooner.
Re: The Great American Flaw
I don't know what area of GB your friends have come from, but I have many British colleagues and most talk fondly about interscholastic athletics, even at a university level. The idea of training a body and a mind lives in the British schools, at least man of them.
As for the competitive system, many have eschewed it and a lot are sending their children to American universities. Between near entitlements at the best schools because of family ancestors going there (like many of our prestigious universities), to the corrupt A level system (I recall reading an article in the London Times a number of years ago when students in certain areas were down graded on their exams and, thus, prevented from advancing in the areas of choice. There is no ideal system.
As for the competitive system, many have eschewed it and a lot are sending their children to American universities. Between near entitlements at the best schools because of family ancestors going there (like many of our prestigious universities), to the corrupt A level system (I recall reading an article in the London Times a number of years ago when students in certain areas were down graded on their exams and, thus, prevented from advancing in the areas of choice. There is no ideal system.
Re: The Great American Flaw
But on the other hand,…
"Every three years, the Paris-based OECD holds its Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests of the reading, math and science skills of 15-year-olds in developing and developed countries…Sixty-five nations competed [in 2009]…America ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.
"[Among] the top 30 nations, one finds not a single Latin American nation, not a single African nation, not a single Muslim nation, not a single South or Southeast Asian nation (except Singapore), and not a single nation of the old Soviet Union except Latvia and Estonia.
"Steve Sailer of VDARE.com got the full list of 65 nations, broke down U.S. reading scores by race, then measured Americans with the countries and continents from which their families originated. What he found was surprising. Asian-Americans outperform all Asian students except for Shanghai-Chinese. White Americans outperform students from all 37 predominantly white nations except Finns, and U.S. Hispanics outperformed the students of all eight Latin American countries that participated in the tests. African-American kids would have outscored the students of any sub-Saharan African country that took the test (none did) and did outperform the only black country to participate, Trinidad and Tobago, by 25 points.
"[Therefore], America's public schools…are educating immigrants and their descendants to outperform the kinfolk their parents or ancestors left behind when they came to America.
"[But American’s schools] do not know how to close the gap in reading, science and math between Anglo and Asian students and black and Hispanic students. And [based on] the PISA tests, neither does any other country on earth.
In the [American] public and parochial schools of the 1940s and 1950s, kids were pushed to the limits of their ability, then pushed harder. And when they stopped learning, they were pushed out the door. [Now we fight to keep them in school]… most of America's educational woes would vanish if these indifferent, troublesome students left when they had absorbed as much as they were going to learn and were replaced by learning-hungry students from Korea, Japan, India, Russia, Africa and the Caribbean.
Pat Buchanan
"Every three years, the Paris-based OECD holds its Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests of the reading, math and science skills of 15-year-olds in developing and developed countries…Sixty-five nations competed [in 2009]…America ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.
"[Among] the top 30 nations, one finds not a single Latin American nation, not a single African nation, not a single Muslim nation, not a single South or Southeast Asian nation (except Singapore), and not a single nation of the old Soviet Union except Latvia and Estonia.
"Steve Sailer of VDARE.com got the full list of 65 nations, broke down U.S. reading scores by race, then measured Americans with the countries and continents from which their families originated. What he found was surprising. Asian-Americans outperform all Asian students except for Shanghai-Chinese. White Americans outperform students from all 37 predominantly white nations except Finns, and U.S. Hispanics outperformed the students of all eight Latin American countries that participated in the tests. African-American kids would have outscored the students of any sub-Saharan African country that took the test (none did) and did outperform the only black country to participate, Trinidad and Tobago, by 25 points.
"[Therefore], America's public schools…are educating immigrants and their descendants to outperform the kinfolk their parents or ancestors left behind when they came to America.
"[But American’s schools] do not know how to close the gap in reading, science and math between Anglo and Asian students and black and Hispanic students. And [based on] the PISA tests, neither does any other country on earth.
In the [American] public and parochial schools of the 1940s and 1950s, kids were pushed to the limits of their ability, then pushed harder. And when they stopped learning, they were pushed out the door. [Now we fight to keep them in school]… most of America's educational woes would vanish if these indifferent, troublesome students left when they had absorbed as much as they were going to learn and were replaced by learning-hungry students from Korea, Japan, India, Russia, Africa and the Caribbean.
Pat Buchanan
Re: The Great American Flaw
Some facsinating info there Dave....
The one problem with Pat's conclusion however, is that people who are "pushed out" are still going to be in our society, and a large pool of uneducated essentially unemployable young people, (particularly males) create enormous problems for any society.
The one problem with Pat's conclusion however, is that people who are "pushed out" are still going to be in our society, and a large pool of uneducated essentially unemployable young people, (particularly males) create enormous problems for any society.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: The Great American Flaw
I have said this before in other threads of similar topic, the problem with todays high schools is the fixation of getting all kids in to college. There are planty of kids who are not college material who would be better served in trade schools. But todays high schools seem to be deemed failures if less than 80% of their kids do not go on to college.
The world needs plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics (auto technicians?) etc. and those jobs cannot be outsourced to India.
The world needs plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics (auto technicians?) etc. and those jobs cannot be outsourced to India.
Re: The Great American Flaw
Thanks Dave.
What this does highlight is that, in terms of education, most first world countries seem to be making the same mistakes.
I am heartened by the course young Hatch will be taking for the next two years.
What this does highlight is that, in terms of education, most first world countries seem to be making the same mistakes.
I am heartened by the course young Hatch will be taking for the next two years.
Oh, by the way..The curriculum
IB Diploma Programme students study six courses at higher level or standard level. Students must choose one subject from each of groups 1 to 5, thus ensuring breadth of experience in languages, social studies, the experimental sciences and mathematics. The sixth subject may be an arts subject chosen from group 6, or the student may choose another subject from groups 1 to 5.
In addition the programme has three core requirements that are included to broaden the educational experience and challenge students to apply their knowledge and understanding.
The extended essay is a requirement for students to engage in independent research through an in-depth study of a question relating to one of the subjects they are studying.
Theory of knowledge is a course designed to encourage each student to reflect on the nature of knowledge by critically examining different ways of knowing (perception, emotion, language and reason) and different kinds of knowledge (scientific, artistic, mathematical and historical).
Creativity, action, service requires that students actively learn from the experience of doing real tasks beyond the classroom. Students can combine all three components or do activities related to each one of them separately.
Assessment
Students take written examinations at the end of the programme, which are marked by external IB examiners. Students also complete assessment tasks in the school, which are either initially marked by teachers and then moderated by external moderators or sent directly to external examiners.
The diploma is awarded to students who gain at least 24 points, subject to certain minimum levels of performance across the whole programme and to satisfactory participation in the creativity, action, service requirement. The highest total that a Diploma Programme student can be awarded is 45 points.
http://www.ibo.org/diploma/
Thoughts?You searched for Diploma Programme (DIPLOMA) schools in all regions of the United States.
Your search returned 717 matches.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: The Great American Flaw
oldr_n_wsr wrote:I have said this before in other threads of similar topic, the problem with todays high schools is the fixation of getting all kids in to college. There are planty of kids who are not college material who would be better served in trade schools. But todays high schools seem to be deemed failures if less than 80% of their kids do not go on to college.
The world needs plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics (auto technicians?) etc. and those jobs cannot be outsourced to India.
...and welders!
Re: The Great American Flaw
I taught a sixth grade math class in a predominately black school in Northeast Louisiana. About a fourth of the class did not know their multiplication tables. It has been about ten years now and I bet a quarter of the class still don’t know their multiplication tables. Perhaps such things are old fashioned and don’t need to be learned.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: The Great American Flaw
I have never heard of (DIPLOMA) and Long Island in general has pretty good school districts. What the "better" high school students take are AP (Advanced Placement) courses and some college level courses depending on what the school district you are in offers. My daughter graduated 8th (out of about 2000) in her class and had 15 college credits (almost a full semester) before she went off to college (Uni to those down under and across the pond)Gob wrote:Oh, by the way..
Thoughts?You searched for Diploma Programme (DIPLOMA) schools in all regions of the United States.
Your search returned 717 matches.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: The Great American Flaw
We learned multiplication tables in 2nd grade IIRC. Now they have calculators.liberty wrote:I taught a sixth grade math class in a predominately black school in Northeast Louisiana. About a fourth of the class did not know their multiplication tables. It has been about ten years now and I bet a quarter of the class still don’t know their multiplication tables. Perhaps such things are old fashioned and don’t need to be learned.
I tought my kids to try and figure out the answers before going to the calculator. To at least have a ballpark clue about the answer as if you hit the wrong key or something like that you know the the calculator answer is wrong.
I did not like them having calculators in school, thankfully they only phased them in after my kids finished the fundamentals.
Re: The Great American Flaw
Gob, I am familiar with the International Baccalaureate program and I think it's great. I enrolled my son in an IB school & program when he was in 9th grade, but he decided to transfer back to the public school (largely because he felt guilty about our having to pay a high tuition at the IB school - though he didn't reveal his motivation at the time).
Regarding multiplication tables and calculators, I hear a lot of local (suburban, white) kids saying that their teachers are careful to balance proficiency with calculators with basic math skills.
Regarding teaching kids construction and other trades, we have some of that here, but the parents seem to think going to the "Technical High School" as a sign of a child's having failed at schooling.
What we really need to teach and encourage at all levels is is entrepreneurship. Many more people find success in small businesses than in the corporate world or in the "learned professons." And you don't necessarily have to be "book smart."
Regarding multiplication tables and calculators, I hear a lot of local (suburban, white) kids saying that their teachers are careful to balance proficiency with calculators with basic math skills.
Regarding teaching kids construction and other trades, we have some of that here, but the parents seem to think going to the "Technical High School" as a sign of a child's having failed at schooling.
What we really need to teach and encourage at all levels is is entrepreneurship. Many more people find success in small businesses than in the corporate world or in the "learned professons." And you don't necessarily have to be "book smart."
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: The Great American Flaw
I've heard that too and it's something that should change. When a plumber charges you $80 just to come look at the problem (if you can get an appointment at all) that's a pretty good enticement for the trades.Regarding teaching kids construction and other trades, we have some of that here, but the parents seem to think going to the "Technical High School" as a sign of a child's having failed at schooling.
Re: The Great American Flaw
That and alot of trade schools fall under the "sketchy at best" category.
There has to be some way of getting some trade schools to rate higher than the University of Phoenix.
There has to be some way of getting some trade schools to rate higher than the University of Phoenix.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: The Great American Flaw
Here on Long Island we have BOCES (Board Of Cooperative Educational Services) which is a school outside of a school. It is county run and all the schools "pay" per pupil attending. Basically they go to regular school for half a day then go to BOCES to learn a trade for half a day. The problem is (as has been mentioned here before by others) is the "stigma" attached, and also the perception, mostly among the parents, that something is wrong with my kid if they don't go on to college. I would have loved and did encourage my son to find a trade as I knew he was not really college material. While he was very good at math, english and the rest brought him down. Now he's an assistant nutritionist at the hospital with 4 years of college (dropped out) and it's tuition money down the drain. While not a bad job (union), I think he could have done better for himself be it staying the course in college or learning a trade (but isn't that what all parents say).
His buddy went to BOCES and is now an apprentice electrician (I believe it's a 5-6 year apprenticeship) and doing rather well for himself.
His buddy went to BOCES and is now an apprentice electrician (I believe it's a 5-6 year apprenticeship) and doing rather well for himself.