Hit me with your rhythm stick

[Gob]

The newly-appointed NSW police commissioner has lambasted a view propagated among some Muslim Australians that Muslim husbands are permitted to hit their wives.

In a video discussion posted on the Women of Hizb ut-Tahrir Australia's Facebook page on April 8, two women from the hardline fringe group said that the permission to strike a disobedient wife was "a beautiful blessing" but it should only be soft and "symbolic".

The women, western Sydney primary school teacher Reem Allouche and Indian-born scholar Atika Latifi, also said that Muslim men have slower reaction times and no ability to multi-task but are physically stronger and obliged to be the leader in a marriage.

On Thursday, federal minister for women, Michaelia Cash, said the video was an "abhorrent" attempt to teach the next generation of young Australian Muslims that violence against women was acceptable.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/muslim-men-pe ... vk8rl.html

[Joe Guy]

I don't know about you but I have always hated it when wives are disobedient...

[oldr_n_wsr]

Yeah, this is a lifestyle/attitude/code of conduct we should welcome with open arms.

[Big RR]

And I've been waiting for another beautiful blessing; right now all Christian men can do is to tell women to shut up and not contradict a man in church. that's no where near as beautiful a blessing as beating is.

[RayThom]

What a Blockhead. It is written:

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).

[BoSoxGal]

And I've been waiting for another beautiful blessing; right now all Christian men can do is to tell women to shut up and not contradict a man in church. that's no where near as beautiful a blessing as beating is.

I'm guessing this is a really, REALLY poor attempt at humor? The mind boggles . . .

[Big RR]

What gave it away--the laughing icon, or maybe this entire thread and the posts other than the initial one?

[BoSoxGal]

I guess there are some things most women don't think are ever funny - wife beating is one of them for me and I suspect many others. But go ahead, someone remind me that it's a sign we are just too sensitive.

[Big RR]

Well if you choose to single me out, go ahead. I'll admit they can't all be knee-slappers (no pun intended), and so far as I know I have never accused you of being oversensitive, nor am I doing so now.

[ex-khobar Andy]

I think Big RR was making the point that some 'christian' men believe that the bible gives them authority to discipline their wives; and certainly some of Paul's utterances are clear that, while not directly condoning violence, the man is the boss.

http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/


(And Ray - I liked the 'What a Blockhead' comment.)

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think Big RR was making the point that some 'christian' men believe that the bible gives them authority to discipline their wives; and certainly some of Paul's utterances are clear that, while not directly condoning violence, the man is the boss.

http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/


(And Ray - I liked the 'What a Blockhead' comment.)

... and while not indirectly condoning violence either. Paul is clear that God is the boss. Strange link that - they misuse Hebrews right off the bat to make it appear that the "discipline" is something to do with spanking (wives?). In fact, Hebrews addresses God's discipline to man and compares it to how a child is disciplined by a father. Spanking don't enter into it! I am always dubious (and probably dismissive) of "Christian" sites that misuse the Bible.

I don't know any Christian men who believe the Bible warrants disciplining a wife. As Paul wrote, the husband is to love his wife in the same way that Christ loved the church - that is, sacrificing his own desires and serving. It is a mutual thing. But yes, the husband is the head of the household which says nothing about discipline or autocratic rule. My wife knows I am the head of the household but that stops neither of us from deferring to the other when it comes to planning, discussing and deciding. Rather, it demands a higher standard of giving and leadership on my part, which sadly is often not met.

[Big RR]

Actually, I was referring more to the statements of Paul that women should mind their tongues in churches and not contradict men; there are some fairly conservative denominations that carry this to extremes, not allowing women to hold office, preach.

For example, 1 Timothy 2: 11-14:

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

And my main point in pointing this teaching out (and I hoped my humorous comments would have borne this out) was that just as many Christian denominations do not take this literally even though it is in the New Testament (as I said, a few do), most have interpreted it much more narrowly or differently to the point where most christian denominations ordain women pastors/priests. So why should we not presume that many/most moslems would not interpret the cited verse from the Koran in a similar way?

[MajGenl.Meade]

that women should mind their tongues in churches and not contradict men

Want some lead to really overload that editorial?

Er no. Paul says that in church gatherings he does not allow women to be teachers of men. They should not seek to be pastor/leaders wielding authority over male congregants. Nothing to do with contradicting.

It is of course a very Hebrew, Pharisee, Tribe of Benjamin attitude - Paul was all of those. But to give him a little slack, at least he didn't say a church should have a special courtyard for women to stand in, separate from the men and not able to participate in worship as was the case with the Temple. Progressive rascal, eh?

To your original point, I was rather surprised that the "hardliners" quoted seemed indeed to fiddle with the Prophet (BBHN) when they suggest that the striking should be "soft" and "symoblic"

Feather dusters all round!

[Big RR]

Er no. Paul says that in church gatherings he does not allow women to be teachers of men. They should not seek to be pastor/leaders wielding authority over male congregants. Nothing to do with contradicting.

I read verse 11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection" to mean that women should mind their tongues and remain silent when in church (and learning, since they should not teach, or at least teach men).

as for whether contradicting a man equates with usurping authority over him, we can draw our own conclusions.

But yes, you are right, he did not follow all of the temple dictates in his statement (but progressive/ ). But then, is this biblical passage just a recordation of Paul's views on the subject matter, or do you think because it is biblical that it is something more?

As for the initial post, I do think interpretation is always required when one is dealing with an ancient text, often not written in the language you are reading it in. And I do think many modern moslems do that, as do many modern christians (or jews or hindus, or ...), despite the insistence of others that their interpretation is the only valid one.

[Gob]

My wife knows let's me think I am the head of the household but that stops neither of us from deferring to the other when it comes to planning, discussing and deciding.

FTFY!!

[BoSoxGal]

Lets, not let's - otherwise, excellent point!

[Lord Jim]

My wife knows I am the head of the household

Yeah, just like Ralph:

[Joe Guy]

[oldr_n_wsr]

Tip for a good marraige, always get the in the last words of an argument with your wife.








"You're right , I'm wrong dear"
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[rubato]

And don't forget, being right is more important than anything else.

yrs,
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