Maybe it's time to try something else...

Scooter · Post by **Scooter** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:04 am

...because this isn't working

Crackpot · Post by **Crackpot** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:32 am

What about Bowling Green?

BoSoxGal · Post by **BoSoxGal** » Wed May 24, 2017 4:41 pm

RayThom · Post by **RayThom** » Thu May 25, 2017 3:31 am

"... You cannot petition the lord with prayer... "

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Thu May 25, 2017 5:06 pm

Scooter wrote:...because this isn't working

Describe "not working"? Please describe the wording and the purpose of all the prayers?

oldr_n_wsr · Post by **oldr_n_wsr** » Thu May 25, 2017 7:40 pm

I pray daily for my sobriety and for me and others to find peace in their hearts and minds....
and to be rid of my many character defects
but what I have learned is rather than remove my character defects, I get taught lessons on how to "deal" with them in a positive way

Scooter · Post by **Scooter** » Thu May 25, 2017 7:44 pm

A former pastor of mine once preached in a sermon, "Prayer should not be about trying to seek for God in a situation. It should be about trying to figure out where God sees you in a situation."

Econoline · Post by **Econoline** » Thu May 25, 2017 8:26 pm

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
- — Anne Lamott

Also, while searching for the exact wording of the above quote, I came across this, also from Anne Lamott:

The opposite of faith is not doubt: It is certainty.

FWIW I have never understood the concept of "prayer".

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Thu May 25, 2017 9:03 pm

Yep, no response at all to the substance of "this isn't working"

Econoline · Post by **Econoline** » Thu May 25, 2017 9:54 pm

Since I don't understand anything about the concept of "prayer" (despite having been raised as a Roman Catholic) it stands to reason that I have no idea what "working" or "not working" might mean in this context.

ETA: I just threw in that quote about "the opposite of faith" because I hadn't encountered it before and I thought it was an interesting observation.

BoSoxGal · Post by **BoSoxGal** » Thu May 25, 2017 10:10 pm

God helps those who help themselves - so maybe we need to do more than pray?

Gob · Post by **Gob** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:42 pm

If prayer worked, they'd have banned it.

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Fri May 26, 2017 8:35 am

Gob wrote:If prayer worked, they'd have banned it.

Give "them" time, Gob. Give 'em time

oldr_n_wsr · Post by **oldr_n_wsr** » Fri May 26, 2017 12:45 pm

I pray every morning. (the last time span I didn't pray I ended up drinking again and then trying to "off" myself)
Don't know what I am praying to, higher power? God? cosmic energy, The Force....?
I don't know.
And that is fine with me.
I believe there is somthing out there, maybe not omnipotent, maybe not omnipresent, but there none the less.
a connection that is there between all people???

What I do know is prayer makes me feel better, gives me some peace of mind and body, and gets me and my mind (which is not reliable nor always sane) ready for the day.

I have been trying to meditate also. Clear the mind for a bit, shut off the outside world.
I doze off a lot when meditating.
But I keep at it.
Practice, not perfection.

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Fri May 26, 2017 1:03 pm

Still no rational defense offered for "this is not working".

What were the prayers and how were they supposed to "work"?

Or did someone just write bigoted rubbish that actually cannot be defended?

Big RR · Post by **Big RR** » Fri May 26, 2017 1:05 pm

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Yep, no response at all to the substance of "this isn't working"

meade--nearly every public prayer (and perhaps most private ones) addressing these attacks (and similar things) has included a petition to bring peace and understanding to our world so that people will not longer have to bury their loved ones due to idiocy like these attacks, and that has not happened throughout our history, so it is not "working". Now I will agree that god is not a genie who will wave a wand and bring us our heart's desires, and I also with BSG agree that god expects us to step up to and work on our problems and not expect the answers to be handed to us, but merely praying to end the divisions and violence cannot be said to be "working", nor would I expect it to.

It reminds me of a poster we had in my church when I was young (I am presuming it was part of a campaign)--it showed a homeless guy sitting on the curb said "Listen Christian, I was hungry and you just went home and prayed for me". Prayer has its place in greater understanding and reflection (or maybe understanding where god sees you in a situation, as scooter suggested), but it does not "work" to bring about real change--that is something we must do ourselves. God will always support us and extend the helping hand, but he is not Santa Claus who will give us what we will not work for.

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Fri May 26, 2017 1:18 pm

Thank you, Big RR. I was not thinking of narrow petitions for peace and love all round. I assumed that most prayers would be for the health, support and consolation of those grieving.

I gather then that you are saying some things prayed for do not happen (i.e. do not "work"). That is rather different than a blanket generalization of "not working".

While this is eternally true (and the basis for the poster you mention)...

If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead....

... and granting that the majority of people in the world are not actually able to go to Manchester and offer food and clothing (to people who do not need food and clothing), is the thrust of the "not working" argument that no one at all should pray at all?

I'm sure you don't think that but isn't it the logical meaning of "maybe it's time to try something else because this isn't working"?

FWIW (not much) my own belief in prayer is similar to the idea Scooter expressed i.e. prayer is a vehicle by which we ourselves are changed.

Crackpot · Post by **Crackpot** » Fri May 26, 2017 1:29 pm

Hashtagging in general has become great for giving oneself a sense of accomplishment without accomplishing anything.

Big RR · Post by **Big RR** » Fri May 26, 2017 1:31 pm

prayer is a vehicle by which we ourselves are changed.

I agree with this, and while we cannot go to Manchester, while we stand in solidarity with those suffering, we can take this a new challenge to work to end these divisions so the pattern will end. By all means pray and seek the change within yourself, but then go out and become that change in the world. Sadly, I do think there are many who end the process at the utterance of a prayer and then leave it up to god to do the rest.

And FWIW, I think the idea of "doing something else" also includes doing something more, so pray as you see fit, but then go out and work for that change you are seeking.

Burning Petard · Post by **Burning Petard** » Fri May 26, 2017 3:37 pm

I am quite fond of the writing of Anne Lamott. She says there are only two prayers: Please, and Thank you.

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