Plan B Forum

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:48 am**

The final stage of the beatification process for Pope John Paul II has been approved as a date for the honour has been set for May 1.

Pope Benedict XVI said in a decree today that a French nun's recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle - the last step needed for beatification. A second miracle is needed for the Polish born John Paul to be made a saint. The ceremony, which Benedict himself will celebrate, is expected to draw hundreds of thousands of pilgrims to Rome - a major boost for a Catholic church reeling from a wave of violence against Christians and fallout from the clerical sex abuse scandal.

Once he is beatified, John Paul will be given the titled 'blessed' and can be publicly venerated. Many people, especially in Poland, already venerate him privately, but the ceremony will make it official.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1B43Psfuv

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:14 am**

Surely if he had performed another 'miracle' they wouldn't have to hunt around for it... These kind of things tend to get attention.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:15 am**

Gob wrote:You have to laugh

Why?

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:17 am**

Sean wrote:Surely if he had performed another 'miracle' they wouldn't have to hunt around for it... These kind of things tend to get attention.

The miracle can occur after his death, if they are the result of prayer in his name.
So, the Holy See is waiting for the second miracle to arrive yet.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:22 pm**

Being called a "Saint" by the largest and longest running child-sex ring in human history rather diminishes the glory of it.

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:04 pm**

There are pedophiles in any human organization; I believe the percentages are average among any group.
I'm not aware of any one society statistically having more pedophile members than others (Other than those specifically organized around those kinds of behaviors. )

However, it can be said the Catholic Church has some of the highest numbers of Saints within it's ranks, than other groups.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:10 pm**

rubato wrote:Being called a "Saint" by the largest and longest running child-sex ring in human history rather diminishes the glory of it.

yrs,
rubato

Also, the Church doesn't make one a Saint; it merely recognizes the Holy person.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:30 pm**

based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

...

According to federal studies, three quarters of abuse occurs at the hands of family members or others in the victim's "circle of trust."

...

Allen suggests a final reason we hear so much more about Catholic abuse than transgressions in other religions: its sheer size. It's the second largest single denomination in the world (behind Islam) and the biggest in the United States. (Fifty-one percent of all American adults are Protestant, but they belong to hundreds of different denominations.) "When you consider the per capita data," says Allen, "I don't think they have a larger incidence than other faiths."

NewsWeek

Perpetuating this myth, is a form of religious bigotry.

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:55 am**

The other reason we hear so much about child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church is anti-catholic bigotry. For example, review every fucking posting by rubato when the subject of the Catholic Church is raised, in any context.

I think our PR people ought to make up a phony word to describe these folks, you know, something like "Cathlophobe." It doesn't have to make semantic or logical sense. Just keep repeating it over and over again, and hope that eventually people will start to consider it a slur.

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:12 am**

Oh my, I went surfing to see if there were such a term, and Wiki has a whole page on it, Anti-Catholicism. ...although Cathlophobe is accepted as a colloquialism.

In particular, it's interesting to note;

Residual anti-Catholicism in England is represented by the burning of an effigy of the Catholic conspirator Guy Fawkes at local celebrations on Guy Fawkes Night every 5 November.[16] This celebration has, however, largely lost any sectarian connotation and the allied tradition of burning an effigy of the Pope on this day has been discontinued - except in the town of Lewes, Sussex.[17]

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:26 am**

There is no group with a record of producing pedophiles and protecting them from prosecution in so many countries over such a long time as the Catholic church.

No other group has moved pedophiles from city to city to allow them to continue, even moving them from country to country. The Vatican has been caught trying to block investigation of the church's child sex rings .

______________________________
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/ ... 6978.shtml
http://www.wanttoknow.info/050415sexcrimescoverup

Sex Crimes Cover-Up By Vatican?

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 6, 2003

(CBS) For decades, priests in this country abused children in parish after parish while their superiors covered it all up. Now it turns out the orders for this cover up were written in Rome at the highest levels of the Vatican.

CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales has uncovered a church document kept secret for 40 years.

The confidential Vatican document, obtained by CBS News, lays out a church policy that calls for absolute secrecy when it comes to sexual abuse by priests - anyone who speaks out could be thrown out of the church.

The policy was written in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani.

The document, once "stored in the secret archives" of the Vatican, focuses on crimes initiated as part of the confessional relationship and what it calls the "worst crime": sexual assault committed by a priest" or "attempted by him with youths of either sex or with brute animals."

Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases "in the most secretive way...restrained by a perpetual silence...and everyone (including the alleged victim) ...is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office...under the penalty of excommunication."

Larry Drivon, a lawyer who represents alleged victims, said, “This document is significant because it's a blueprint for deception.”

Drivon said this proves what he has alleged on behalf of victims in priest-abuse lawsuits: that the church engaged in a crime – racketeering.

“It's an instruction manual on how to deceive and how to protect pedophiles,” Drivon said. "And exactly how to avoid the truth coming out."
..."

_____________________________

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:02 pm**

The records state every group from the level of the family to the level of a large organization covered up these kinds of crimes. You could say the American School system is corrupt and immoral in this way, when teachers if they were caught, were usually just transferred. Doctors seemed to be able to get away with it with impunity.

It's a quirk in human nature, that authority figures must be flawless, and damn the facts.
So, it's been going on as long as mankind. Maybe even longer, there are these Bonobo chimpanzees...

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:10 pm**

Lo--

However, it can be said the Catholic Church has some of the highest numbers of Saints within it's ranks, than other groups.

Isn't that kind of like saying the military has the largest amount of sergeants or lieutenants? When you control who gets the title, you wil of course have the largest number of persons with that title; indeed, I am not aware of the RC church naming anyone but a practicing RC a saint.

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:19 pm**

There are Saints in Islam (Sunni and Sufi), Judaism, Hinduism and Sikhism, etc.

The anthropologist [5] Lawrence Babb in an article about Sathya Sai Baba asks the question "Who is a saint?", and responds by saying that in the symbolic infrastructure of some religions, there is the image of a certain extraordinary spiritual king's "miraculous powers", to whom frequently a certain moral presence is attributed. These saintly figures, he asserts, are "the focal points of spiritual force-fields," exerting "powerful attractive influence on followers but touch the inner lives of others in transforming ways as well."[6]

Wiki

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:19 pm**

Big RR wrote:Lo--
However, it can be said the Catholic Church has some of the highest numbers of Saints within it's ranks, than other groups.
Isn't that kind of like saying the military has the largest amount of sergeants or lieutenants? When you control who gets the title, you wil of course have the largest number of persons with that title; indeed, I am not aware of the RC church naming anyone but a practicing RC a saint.

To part quote a famous line..

"Can we get you on "Mastermind" dear? Next contestant Sybil Fawlty, specialist subject...."

I'll leave it to you lot to find the complete quote

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:33 pm**

As well as bad timing Gob, (I answered the question already, see above)looking up that quote sent me to a FaceBook link; which means I have to wait another 14 days to delete that account

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:35 pm**

loCAtek wrote:There are Saints in Islam (Sunni and Sufi), Judaism, Hinduism and Sikhism, etc.

The anthropologist [5] Lawrence Babb in an article about Sathya Sai Baba asks the question "Who is a saint?", and responds by saying that in the symbolic infrastructure of some religions, there is the image of a certain extraordinary spiritual king's "miraculous powers", to whom frequently a certain moral presence is attributed. These saintly figures, he asserts, are "the focal points of spiritual force-fields," exerting "powerful attractive influence on followers but touch the inner lives of others in transforming ways as well."[6]
Wiki

Well if you buy each group's ability to say who is and who is not a saint, would think it would mean very little which group has the most saints. Indeed, all one need do is to broaden the definition to have more "saints" within one's ranks; in such a case my money would be on the mormons who can create saints posthumously.

BTW, I have never heard of saints in the jewish faith--does anyone know if there really are some ( I know the OT references prophets, but are these the same as what the RC church refers to as saints?). The same question re islam.

And Gob--just because its (bleedin") obvious doesn't mean it' not worth saying. Hell, if we put that criteria as a filter, probably well over 95% of the posts here would disappear (oops, including this one

).

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:58 pm**

You know, you don't have-a a patron saint for the United States, but there are some American saints. Just the last couple of years they made-a some. The first was-a about-a two years ago. Her name was-a Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton. Mother Seton-is-a what they call her. And she's got-a these nuns of her own order who lobby-they're real heavy-they came to Rome and everything.

And it's amazing, you see. To be made a saint in-a the catholic church, you have to have-a four miracles. That's-a the rules, you know. It's-a always been that-a. Four miracles, and-a to prove it. Well, this-a Mother Seton-now they could only prove-a three miracles. But the Pope-he just waved the fourth one. He just waved it! And do you know why? It's-a because she was American. It's all-a politics. We got-a some Italian-a people, they got-a forty, fifty, sixty miracles to their name. They can't-a get in just cause they say there's already too many Italian saints, and this woman comes along with-a three lousy miracles. I understand that-a two of them was-a card tricks. Next thing you know, they're gonna be making Kreskin a saint. Saint Kreskin-they'll probably call him. It's a good one.

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:37 pm**

Other religions have similar or parallel figures but christianity is the only one with actual 'saints'.

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:25 pm**

Well...

I seem to recall that there is one "American" church that kinda sorta claims that all its adherents are "saints." LDS stands for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day SAINTS, eh?

JPII ironically set the bar somewhat lower for "sainthood," with the general philosophy that a "saint" was someone who lived an exemplary life. The traditional belief was that a "saint" was someone who was now in "heaven," and thus could intercede with God to help us humans out when we were in a jam. Thus, Catholics pray for saints to intercede with God to grant us a wish, to wit, cure a loved one of cancer.

The Church actually does investigate claimed cures and sets a rather high bar for miraculous cures attributable to a particular saint. Not medically explainable, and so forth.

I have personally had my prayers answered (affirmatively) on a couple occasions, quickly and definitively, so I am reluctant to say it's a bunch of hooey.

By his own standards, there is no question that JPII is a "saint," and should be canonized.

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