Plan B Forum

Pope has just 'suggested' that the King James version got it wrong, and so have all the Roman Catholic approved English versions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/08/worl ... ation.html

Infailibility, whether it is the inerrant holy book, or the Bishop of Rome, does have interesting ramifications.

snailgate

The Pope did not just dream this up out of nowhere. Theologians have been parsing the meaning of that fragment since the early centuries of the Church. Because while the Greek text unquestionably translates as "and lead us not into...", almost all of them end up concluding that it should be read to mean something like "and prevent us from being led..." or "and prevent us from succumbing to...", because a more literal reading would see God as a source of temptation.

The post-Vatican II French translation was even more theological troubling, conjuring the image of a god who deliberately laid spiritual minefields in our path. The new "ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation" actually returns close to the language of the pre-Vatican II version. The Spanish version is similar - "no nos dejes caer en tentación" - I'm not sure how far back it dates. Same for the Portuguese.

One passage I read about the French changes (not sure how reliable it is) said that the Aramaic text may have used a causative conjugation that meant "do not allow us to be led", which was missed when translating to Greek.

Those who insist on slavish adherence to a formula at the expense of theological soundness and clarity might remember that the gospels say that Jesus told his followers to pray "after this manner (KJV), or "in this way" (NRSV), and not "using these exact words." The variations between the extant versions of Matthew and between Matthew and Luke show that no uniform version existed, nor is there any way of knowing the version that Jesus taught. And yet somehow the Church reinvented the way Jesus taught us to pray into "the words our Saviour gave us".

Prayer is what you want/need it to be. Failing to repeat your chosen faith's words verbatim, whether at home or in church, can't possibly prevent you from reaping your eternal rewards when you die... or can it?

Lord, can you hear me now?

O, the fickle finger of faith...

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

'Lead us not into' means 'lead us away from', doesn't it? Rumor has it that earlier versions had Jesus saying, 'Lead us not down the rabbit hole' and his editor suggested something a little more poetic.

As a committed atheist who loves church music (Panis Angelicus anyone? Or Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring?) and translating the New Testament from the Greek in which it survived for 1000 years I offer this as evidence of my mixedupness.

Matthew 6: 9 -13 is the original of the Lord’s Prayer. (For the most part the version in Luke is the same.) Verse 13 reads in Greek:

καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,

ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.

Taking the first line of this a word at a time:

καὶ (kai) is ‘and.’

μὴ (may) is a simple negation.

εἰσενέγκῃς (eisenegkes) needs a bit of breaking up because it’s a compound word. The prefixes εἰσ- and εν- both have the meaning of ‘in’ or ‘into.’ The -έγκῃς bit at the end is a declension of ἄγω (ago) with translates as ‘lead’ or ‘guide’ or even ‘command.’

ἡμᾶς (hemas) translates as ‘us.’

εἰς is the same εἰσ- we saw as a prefix in the compound word above but this time as a standalone word - in or into.

πειρασμόν (peirasmon) is normally translated as trial or experiment in the sense of trying to prove something. I’ve looked up about four instances where πειρασμόν occurs in the NT and each time the KJV guys translate it as ‘temptation.’

I have zero knowledge of Aramaic so if there is a mistranslation from the original language of Roman-era Palestine I cannot comment. Some of the commentary I have seen focuses on the word πειρασμόν and whether it should be translated into 'temptation' or something more prosaic like 'testing.' I think the Pope is more fixated on the word εἰσενέγκῃς which translates as 'lead (or guide) into' but which he sees as more passive - e.g., 'do not let us fall into temptation.' I wouldn't mind betting that that was the original intent of whoever wrote the gospels but certainly the Greek text is clear enough.

ex-khobar Andy wrote:As a committed atheist who loves church music (Panis Angelicus anyone? Or Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring?)...

I'm with you on that. Two wonderful choices. This genre of music, and Xmas madrigals, can often bring me to tears. They make me one with the universe, and reinforce my faith in secular humanism.

Longwood Gardens is a great place to be for the Xmas season. A beautiful light and sound experience for nonbelievers everywhere.

The last time I went to church was when I was in the choir. For some reason I loved the full blown Classical choir, organ music, Gregoian chant, and Latin hymns. I'd pretty much made up my mind on organized religion at that point and sermons I could live without, but being part of the spectacle was what brought me back.

When the choir director was canned from the second church I'd attended (I'd followed the director to a new parish) I quit going, and haven't been in a Catholic church since. Almost 20 years, I think. Both churches had decided to go a more modern route, with guitar and folk choirs. Not my thing, as it just looked like too much gray hippie stuff.

As a lover of classical music Datsun, I agree. I have left and gone to a number of churches to sing the sort of music I enjoyed singing, but it appears many churches, catholic and protestant, are abandoning this in favor of the modern hymns and anthems (which I maintain usually sound like they are written by people who write commercial jingles in their spare time).

As to the OP, I think scooter has it right, although I was always taught that the term "lead us not into temptation" was an older way of saying "lead as away from temptation"; I recall a similar dispute among churches when I was young as to whether it should be "Our father who art in heaven" or "which art in heaven", and of course the RC church leaves out the ending phrase "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever [and ever, according to some]", but then inserts it after the amen OK, they update it to "for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever"). Mach ado about nothing IMHO, but then the great schism was made in part about a dispute in the Council of Nicea over whether the holy ghost proceeded from the father or from the father and the son.

I say, lead us not into temptation, and mean it that way. ("but deliver us from the evil one"... the end. No "power and glory" etc. which was added much later.)

FWIW (showing I can copy and paste)... Strong's has:

πειρασμός
peirasmos
pi-ras-mos'
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.

I've no theological problem with "temptation" or the notion of people pleading with God not to lead them into "temptation". That God exposes people to trial, test, temptation is very Biblical. But it's difficult to desire such trials - hence the hope that God will not put us to the test (well, me anyway).

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. (KJV) ASV and ESV have the same.

It is a trial. The difference between "temptation" from God vs. that of Satan is that God desires that people find success in the trial; the devil wants failure.

1Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it

James 1:2-3 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.

1Peter 1:6-7 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It may seem that James contradicts this in:
1:13-14 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

But he is dealing with the difference between the outcomes of "temptation" and "trial/test". In vs. 12, the trial has the positive, Godly result: "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."

Verses 13-14 immediately following contemplate failure under the trial, when a person says something like Adam did - "you gave me this woman" .... "so it's your fault; not mine". I.E. you're the one who tempted me, so you can't blame me for giving in to my own desire.

Most of us don't experience crises of conscience as temptation, though we may feel tested or on trial. Most of the time, it's just us going along with our own ideas.

Or as someone else put it;
A scheme is not a vision
And you never have been tempted
By a demon or a god.

the end. No "power and glory" etc. which was added much later.)

My recollection is that the text dates back to a first century greek document, so I don't think it was added much later (if it was added at all); indeed, it was carried forward by the byzantine bible translations from that date, although the Latin bible (translated by saint Jerome) omits it (and after the Great Schism it was unlikely that the RC would look to a Byzantine translation for guidance, but I do think it interesting that they add it now. And FWIW, almost that exact phrase is found in an early book of the old testament.

Another story I heard is that it was included as a marginal note in an early handwritten latin translation, and some scholars believed that it was added later, while others believed it was left out by mistake and the scribe didn't want to rewrite the entire book. Personally, I think it is a fitting ending to the English translation of the prayer (as well as the latin one) and I have no problem in including it. I doubt any of the translations reflect the original prayer verbatim, nor was any particular significance given to the words used (people were told to pray like this, not use this exact prayer).

Meade - I don't have Strong's Lexicon/Concordance - I have a copy of Erasmus Schmidt's 1638 concordance 1830 Edition edited by Greenfield, and Greenfield's own Lexicon from 1829. I have circumstantial evidence that these two books were purchased together new by an Anglican vicar when he was up at Oxford in the 1830s and have been together ever since.

The concordance references about 20 occurrences of πειρασμόν (and its conjugates) - I did not check but I assume that they are the same ones Strong lists - and found the same as you did which is that the word is almost always translated as 'temptation.'

I think it's possible that what we see here is a shift in the meaning of the word 'tempt.' I have a OED (the big one which is 23 volumes in the public library but in mine it's two volumes with a powerful magnifying glass) and the first three meanings have the sense of a trial (e.g., tempting fate) and it's not until #4 that you have the sense of some sort of slightly illicit behavior with the expectation of pleasure. So it's not so much that the translation could be improved; but that the meaning of the English word has shifted so that a perfectly valid translation in 1612 has lost a little of its meaning.

As a confirmed episcopagan, I was taught “lead us not into temptation.”

If you want good music, find an old style episcopal church. Lots of glorious organ music and singing. And an old old congregation.

My father loved playing the organ in church. He started when he was 16 and played as long as his dementia allowed. I’ve spent so many hours listening to that music. It makes me miss him so much.

My favorite church music experience: Xmas eve service at St. John’s Episcopal in Bangor, Maine - but a scene recreated in Episcopal chapels and cathedrals worldwide - a hushed, candlelit church fills with the voice of a solo tenor singing acapella the opening verse of Once in Royal David’s City, then joined by a full choir & finally organ accompaniment.

A simply transcendent experience even for an atheist.

Here, hear for yourselves:



Merry Christmas!

Andy... interesting. Do you recall the Jesus Seminar in the late 80s that concluded by vote that in their opinion the Lord's Prayer (sic) included only one word spoken by Jesus, and that word was "Father"?

I purchased that book and wish I had it today. Altho' I despised their preconceived notions and worldview (which conflicted with my own [correct] one ), it was fascinating to follow their workings.

BoSoxGal wrote:My favorite church music experience: Xmas eve service at St. John’s Episcopal in Bangor, Maine - but a scene recreated in Episcopal chapels and cathedrals worldwide - a hushed, candlelit church fills with the voice of a solo tenor singing acapella the opening verse of Once in Royal David’s City, then joined by a full choir & finally organ accompaniment.

A simply transcendent experience even for an atheist.

Here, hear for yourselves:



Merry Christmas!

BSG that is a beautiful hymn; when my church choir was deep with talent (sadly not the case now) we used to do a lessons and carol service every Christmas even and that was always the opening one (we even had a boy soprano for a couple of years doing the solo--something I did in my soprano days). There is a lot of wonderful church music, especially Christmas music. Sadly a lot of modern churches ignore it. I'll have the fun of singing Handel's Messiah this weekend with a 60 voice choir and orchestra in a benefit concert and I'm looking forward to it.

Right, I forgot it's a boy soprano, not tenor.

Lucky you, I hope it's enjoyable; I almost joined the Greater New Bedford Chorus to do The Messiah this year, but my work obligations prohibited it, sadly. Hopefully I'll be able to attend the concert, at least.

God is the inspiration for some of the most phenomenal music ever composed, of that there is no doubt. I'm so glad there isn't a test of faith required to enjoy it!

Community sings for Handel's Messiah are always fun. Childhood memories of the family attending a well-rehearsed performance by local choir and orchestra where I always fell asleep early and then woke up with a start when the kettle drums started pounding with KING OF KINGS! LORD OF HOSTS! Then there was the fall when I would pick up and drop off my wife-to-be for rehearsals of a complete performance and she sang soprano in the choir. The rehearsals lasted about 2 hours every Sunday Afternoon for six weeks, and she would come away completely hoarse and unable to say anything above a whisper. Good Times. Now she sings alto makes me sing along in a community, very amateur, performance with no rehearsals at all and I mostly just mouth the words.
snailgate

BigRR - good luck with Handel this weekend.

Just in case you are one of the three people in North America who has not seen this - my favorite flash mob ever. Hallelujah Chorus in a Canadian shopping mall.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

I've posted this before, but after Christmas dinner at my parents house, pretty much all through my teens and into my 20s, Dad would sit down at the harpsichord (which he built) and play all sorts of wonderful holiday music and our favorite carols for a little sing-along. We would always end up the night working our way through the Christmas sections of the Messiah. We had a small but inspired group of family singers - my aunt and mom, the first soprano, I'm a mezzo, we had a couple of altos, and Dad would sing some tenor, and we could occasionally rope in an uncle to sing bass. It was always fun and spirited, and we always ended up laughing almost as much as we would sing.

Big RR - enjoy your concert!

BoSoxGal wrote:Right, I forgot it's a boy soprano, not tenor...

Back in my day we'd call this young lad's voice 'castrato.'

Ouch!