Forgiveness

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Big RR
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Forgiveness

Post by Big RR »

I was watching a documentary over the weekend about the guy the movie "unbreakable" was based on. the guy was an Olympic athlete who was brutalized for years by the guards in a Japanese POW camp. On his return, he was consumed with hatred and the ideas of revenge, but eventually became a Christian and decided to forgive them, travelling to Japan to tell them that. The details aren't all that important, but it did get me thinking about forgiveness and what I means. Most religions talk about it, and I think nearly everyone will agree that keeping hate within you for a long time will cause both physical and mental problems. But when we decide to forgive, what should be done?

I can think of a number people that did things to me at various points in my life, and some of those things hurt me deeply. Yet, with time I have gotten away from the idea of "paying them back" and have forgiven them and moved on. but that forgiveness is personal to me; I have seen no reason to seek them out and raise up old issues--I have moved on and expect that they have as well. If one of them ever approached me seeking my forgiveness (and appearing serious and contrite), I am sure I would tell them the same thing I did, but is this forgiveness or something else? Is it necessary that I let the person who wronged my know I forgave them if they didn't come seeking it? That's what the person in the documentary ved, but I honestly don't understand it. Do you think that the family of a victim of the Mason clan going and sitting down with Charlie to say they forgive him would accomplish anything other than to stroke his overinflated ego?

And what of people who suffered significant harm at the hands of someone else? Must they seek the person out to forgive them, or can they leave it be? I have heard stories about people seeking out the murderer of a child or spouse to forgive them, but I doubt I ever could face someone who did that to someone I care about. I could, I would hope, move on and not be consumed with hatred, but I doubt I could never sit down with them.

And if you do forgive someone, does that mean you should excuse all consequences; if someone robbed you do you also say "I've forgiven you, keep it?" Or do you refuse to cooperate with the criminal prosecution of a person who, e.g., assaulted you because you've forgiven them? My answer would be "no", but if you've forgiven them should you be seeking any punishment?

I've also seen this in some of the countries where a brutal dictatorship has been ousted and "truth committees" are established to bring out the truth and allow the parties to escape punishment. While this is politically pragmatic, does forgiveness require it? Must/should the inmate tell a brutal guard, you have admitted what you did, now go back to you big house while I hobble on my crutches?

I'd be interested in some other viewpoints.

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Guinevere
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Guinevere »

Interesting questions, which I will come back to later, but first two pedantic points: (1) it's Unbroken; and (2) it was a book first (which I thought was better than the movie). :nana

ETA: Apparently when the movie came out I reported that I enjoyed it as much as the book, in a discussion here. Interesting, my memory today is that I preferred the book. Maybe its just my innate preference for books, but I wanted to check what I had previously posted, and be upfront about it, too.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Scooter
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Scooter »

The best definition of forgiveness I have heard is the realization that things could not have turned out any differently than they did. So it is more about achieving an inner peace for oneself around the situation, than it is about any interaction with the person(s) who offended you. In that sense, unless you are contemplating an ongoing relationship with the person, I don't why it should necessarily involve seeking them out to communicate your forgiveness (unless that would represent some sort of closure for you).

Likewise, forgiveness under this definition doesn't require foregoing justice and the consequences of same for the offender. The fact that you are able to make peace with the idea that things could not have gone differently does not absolve the offender of accountability for his/her actions.

Truth and reconciliations commissions are not just about forgiveness. They often provide immunity from punishment for those who cooperate fully because they operate from the principal that getting at the entire truth, and thus allowing healing to happen, is more important than punishment, and so would want the offenders to be as candid as possible without having to fear reprisal. And then in such cases the offended and the offenders need to find some way to live together peaceably after all that has happened; foregoing punishment so as not to foster ongoing resentments may be seen as the best way to achieve that.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

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Big RR
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Big RR »

The best definition of forgiveness I have heard is the realization that things could not have turned out any differently than they did.
Scooter--that is an excellent quote which I will keep.
And then in such cases the offended and the offenders need to find some way to live together peaceably after all that has happened; foregoing punishment so as not to foster ongoing resentments may be seen as the best way to achieve that.
If that is not forgiveness, I'm not sure what it is--perhaps i's just capitulation? So the party inured by the torturer, or who had their family killed by the sadistic soldier are told find a way to live in peace with this person who has suffered no (or few) consequences for what (s)he did; that's just the way things are (and usually the offenders wind up much better off than the injured parties). Sure, punishment might foster some resentment from the offending party, but then foregoing it fosters resentment from the injured party, absent some sort of blanket absolution. Again, it may be pragmatic to give that absolution on the part of the government, but I sincerely wonder about what that does to the injured party who wants to see justice and consequences.

Guin---Unbroken; thanks. I had read about the book in a review when it first came out, but did not read the book or see the film.

wesw
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by wesw »

if someone is truly sorry and asks forgiveness it must be given.

but that is a personal thing. between you and god or your conscience or the earthmother

the king s justice (ie govt) is for the king to decide.

you can forgive a person and still accept that they deserve some type of rebuke.

we all have free will.

things could have always happened differently when free will is involved.

Big RR
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Big RR »

Well wes, that opens two more questions:

How do you know if the person is truly sorry?

And, just as important, what if the person isn't sorry and doesn't seek forgiveness? Is letting go of it and saying I am not going to seek retribution anymore some sort of forgiveness? It's more like saying "the hell with it" than "I forgive the person", but I do think it's a form of forgiveness.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by BoSoxGal »

Forgiveness isn’t for the forgiven, it’s for the forgiver. Holding onto anger is like swallowing poison and expecting someone else to die. The people who most need to be forgiven are the ones who don’t seek it and don’t believe they need it - they’re the ones who cause the greatest pain and least deserve to take up anymore space in the pained person's head.

Or so they say, anyway.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Joe Guy
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Joe Guy »

I'm not adding anything new, but the meaning of forgiveness for me is letting go and moving forward - and it doesn't need to be expressed to the offender.

For example, when I was a teenager, I was hurt by a girl who I suddenly realized had no heart. She apologized in a letter which she ended with, "Forgive, forget, be.", which I believed then was some kind of famous quote and it made a lot of sense to me. So I decided to forget her and be, as in exist without her. The ultimate effect was the same as if I had actually told her I forgave her since I decided not to say anything bad about her to anybody.

rubato
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by rubato »

Guinevere wrote: " ... (2) it was a book first (which I thought was better than the movie). :nana

ETA: Apparently when the movie came out I reported that I enjoyed it as much as the book, in a discussion here. Interesting, my memory today is that I preferred the book. Maybe its just my innate preference for books, but I wanted to check what I had previously posted, and be upfront about it, too. ....
Times past I would have said that I usually prefer the book but more recently I have come to think that the difference in medium simply makes them into very different things. Some movies are just clumsily done (like the adaptation of "Sometimes a Great Notion" which was made into "Never Give an Inch"). Another Kesey book, One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest, is a spectacular adaptation and "Being There" slid effortlessly into film. But the book reads like a screenplay to begin with.

yrs,
rubato

Big RR
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Big RR »

BSG and Joe Guy--that's how I see forgiveness as well, moving on without that anger, hatred, desire for revenge controlling you--letting go. But is there ever a time when you should/must let the person know you did forgive them? and is there any benefit in contacting the person to let them know. the guy in the documentary I saw obviously thought so.

Indeed, I recall another documentary I saw a while back called Forgiving Mengele where a woman who was a childhood victim or his "medical" torture came out to publicly forgive him. I'm not sure why she felt it had to be public (and based on what I saw of her in the film it was not about getting public recognition), but she thought it was important. And I don't understand that, which is why I am interested in what others have to say.

I recall reading a saying once that "forgiveness is the fragrance of the violet which clings to the heel that crushed it", which is something I see as quite cynical. Indeed, would that fragrance be a reward to the person crushing the violet. Might it not prompt that individual to crush many more violets? and does it not then just enable the person to continue their bad behavior and injure more persons? It's kind of like the domestic abuse victim who continues to forgive his/her abuser again and again; what does that do but stroke the ego of the abuser and tell him/her it's OK? By all means move on and don't allow the anger, etc. to control your life, but does it make any sense in such a case to personally or publicly forgive the person who harmed you?

Now I can see that there may be times when personal forgiveness might help; if an obviously contrite person came to you after you decided to put it behind you and asked for forgiveness (I think that is part of many 12 step programs), I would say I forgive them, but would never say "forget about it" or "let bygones be bygones" or help them avoid the consequences of what they did. I recall a case number of years back where a young drunk driver killed someone's family member, and the family of the victim sought to avoid incarceration of the offender because he was so young and didn't deserve to have his life ruined by the stupid mistake. He was sentenced to pay restitution by means of a small monthly check (a few dollars) sent to the victim's family, making him realize every month just what he did to another family--the forgiveness was there, but the consequences persisted.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15 (ESV)

I used say, "I forgive you" to my first wife after (even during) every argument. She did not take it at all well....
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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