Seriously? God doesn't give a fuck mate.
Re: Seriously? God doesn't give a fuck mate.
It comes down to a bit of a paradox involving foreknowledge and freewill and if knowledge of the result negates the free will of the present choice. How you answer that affects your outlook on that question. Is an offer valid if the one offering “knows” the result of that offer. But as you say that answer is entirely academic as it requires a perspective entirely outside of our ability.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
- MajGenl.Meade
- Posts: 20748
- Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
- Location: Groot Brakrivier
- Contact:
Re: Seriously? God doesn't give a fuck mate.
Interesting thoughts, BRR / CP. Re Calvin/Arminian doctrine; one day I'm with the one, and the next I'm with the other. [Yes, the Genesis analogy was wrong. Better to stick with infant vs believer baptism as a 'controversy' that I think may be of little significance - but I lean toward the latter FWIW]
"Free-will" is much more comfortable for most Christians than the idea that God is truly sovereign and therefore predetermines acceptance and rejection of humans - loving all but reconciling only the few. That God does not seem human enough for them, I think.
The real questions:
If a person becomes a believer (and please let's use that in the classical Christian sense for the sake of this argument), does it make any difference to that person if their belief was a free-will choice (inspired by God's grace, which is absolutely required) or if their "decision" was predetermined by the Deity?
If a person is a firm unbeliever, having considered the evidence etc., does that person care if they chose to disbelieve or God predestined it? Since they don't believe in God anyway, the latter should not bother them because it never happened. Their own experience is that they exercised free will, uninfluenced by any creator.
Of course, we can argue all day (if we so choose!) as to whether any will is truly free, utterly unconditioned by any circumstance of birth, life, environment, mental disposition, painful feet and so on. Is the closest to it what we might call a sociopath, but even they have a predisposition to survival and therefore operate with restricted choice?
"Free-will" is much more comfortable for most Christians than the idea that God is truly sovereign and therefore predetermines acceptance and rejection of humans - loving all but reconciling only the few. That God does not seem human enough for them, I think.
The real questions:
If a person becomes a believer (and please let's use that in the classical Christian sense for the sake of this argument), does it make any difference to that person if their belief was a free-will choice (inspired by God's grace, which is absolutely required) or if their "decision" was predetermined by the Deity?
If a person is a firm unbeliever, having considered the evidence etc., does that person care if they chose to disbelieve or God predestined it? Since they don't believe in God anyway, the latter should not bother them because it never happened. Their own experience is that they exercised free will, uninfluenced by any creator.
Of course, we can argue all day (if we so choose!) as to whether any will is truly free, utterly unconditioned by any circumstance of birth, life, environment, mental disposition, painful feet and so on. Is the closest to it what we might call a sociopath, but even they have a predisposition to survival and therefore operate with restricted choice?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts
Re: Seriously? God doesn't give a fuck mate.
You've hit on one of the major issuers here: How does one actually define "free will"? Circumstance has been shown to be a heavy influence on an individual choices. Some say it is such an influence to almost entirely negates free will.
Even if that may be the case I am still a proponent of free will and self determinism as even the smallest changes can have a cumulative effect toward "Good" or "Evil"
That and if you completely negate all individual choice from the equasion everything becomes literally Gods fault making "him" responsible for all suffering which would seem to negate either "his" ability to care for us or "his" omnipotence. Rendering all of existence a pointless exercise for the entertainment(?) of a flawed "God". (Which of course may in fact be the case, but. I would find such a being unworthy of worship)
Even if that may be the case I am still a proponent of free will and self determinism as even the smallest changes can have a cumulative effect toward "Good" or "Evil"
That and if you completely negate all individual choice from the equasion everything becomes literally Gods fault making "him" responsible for all suffering which would seem to negate either "his" ability to care for us or "his" omnipotence. Rendering all of existence a pointless exercise for the entertainment(?) of a flawed "God". (Which of course may in fact be the case, but. I would find such a being unworthy of worship)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.