Those who call themselves Christians

[Scooter]

[Scooter]

[Econoline]

Also (again)...

• You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
  
  — Anne Lamott

[RayThom]

Also (again)...

• You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
  — Anne Lamott

Assuming, of course, in the infinite universe that God has created, there is no other intelligent life to be found.

Now, if there is other life forms, would mankind continue to be the chosen visual model for that God?

[Bicycle Bill]

Also (again)...

• You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
  — Anne Lamott

Assuming, of course, in the infinite universe that God has created, there is no other intelligent life to be found.

Now, if there is other life forms, would mankind continue to be the chosen visual model for that God?

Ray Bradbury considered that and took it to its logical conclusion in his 1951 short story, "…In This Sign", which was later reprinted as "The Fire Balloons" in his book, "The Illustrated Man".

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

"More Christian than Any Christian". Proven wrong on the fact (posted example of Christians and Moslems and nonbelievers gathering to protect and support a Jewish service). Proven wrong on the use of hate speech - excuses about "there are good people on both sides". Proven wrong on grounds of religious belief - Moslems have their faith and act according to their beliefs; it is an insult to them to refer to their acts as "Christian".

For once, bigotry from one of this board's blue-eyed boys has been recognized for what it is and called out - and look at the abuse heaped on those who dared to stand up for truth and honesty.

PS don't be so anthropomorphic Ray. God does not look like us nor we like him. You need to get off that literalist fundamentalist platform

[Scooter]

I’m a Christian. Mike Pence’s Hateful Christianity is Offensive to Me.

JANUARY 20, 2019 / JOHN PAVLOVITZ

Everyone, the Vice President is offended.

In the wake of the response to the news that his wife Karen, is working for a school that excludes both LGBTQ students and staff members, Mike Pence let us all know, with characteristic detached, tongue clicking condescension—that he is disappointed and disturbed by it all.

“Major news organizations attacking Christian education is deeply offensive to us.” he chided.

Is it?

As a Christian and a pastor, Mike Pence is offensive to me.

His position as fully complicit right-hand man to an unrepentant serial predator, offends me.
His complete silence on a litany of human rights atrocities overseen by this Presidency offends me.
His feet of clay in the presence of the legislated assaults on migrant families and uninsured people and sexual assault victims, offends me.
His manufactured persecution complex, while speaking from the place of greatest privilege, offends me.
His lifelong obsession with demonizing the LGBTQ community, offends me.
His support of conversion therapy, that tells LGBTQ people they can pray away the most inherent truths about who they are and how they love, offends me.
His reckless and continual weaponizing of Jesus, offends me.
His Olympic level hypocrisy, that claims any moral high ground while working for a bottom feeder like this President, offends me.

It is offensive to me, that LGBTQ teenagers have massively higher rates of depression and suicide attempts.
It is offensive to me, that millions of loving, compassionate, intelligent, kind, creative people walk away from faith, because professed religious people regularly expose them to the greatest violence.
It is offensive to me that LGBTQ people find inside the Church, their greatest threats and most persistent bullies.
It is offensive to me that people like Mike and Karen Pence hide behind religious liberty, while they wound people they believe are worth less than they are.
It is offensive to me that frauds like the Pences loudly parade their “pro-life” virtue to the world, while showing complete contempt for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender lives—and the lives of women, Muslims, migrants, and sick people.

Their profession of a Christian faith lacking any resemblance to Jesus—offends me deeply.

Jesus’ life was spent on the periphery, living with and advocating for the vulnerable and disregarded. Karen Pence partnering with an organization that is choosing to further marginalize human beings based on an inherent part of who they are, is the antithesis of the message of Christ. It is to pile burdens on already burdened people, it is to marginalize those already at the margins. It is to abandon the compassionate heart of Jesus and to trade it in for power-wielding malice.

Karen Pence and her husband and those like them, would have us believe that she is exercising religious freedom in aligning with an organization that would withhold education, opportunity, and simple joy from LGBTQ human beings—when in reality, they are passing the buck of their prejudices to a God who simply does not consent to them.

There is nothing in the Biblical account of the life and ministry of Jesus that blesses excluding people based on their gender identity or sexual orientation; no Scriptural grounds for the institutional cruelty we’re seeing, nor any justification for the discrimination Mike and Karen Pence seem so burdened to perpetuate.

And the fact that people like him and his wife, given their platform and influence, are using these things to intentionally place people in harm’s way while using Jesus like a hammer—really offends me.

[Scooter]

[MajGenl.Meade]

Now that's more nuanced. I can get on board with those.

"My religion says...." Yes indeed. Many people within religious faith groups believe that an instruction directed at them to refrain from certain behaviors is the same as a license to force others to similarly refrain, even though they do not subscribe to the group. Of course, that often means the finger-wagger does not understand their own faith - or truly endorse it, perhaps.

Mike Pence - well, supporting Trump is enough for me to conclude that he has tremendous ignorance of the faith to which he claims to belong. The rest of the list is even more sad.

[ex-khobar Andy]

"More Christian than many Christians:"

I agree Meade: had Scooter posted the above it would have been (IMO) uncontroversial.

[RayThom]

... PS don't be so anthropomorphic Ray. God does not look like us nor we like him. You need to get off that literalist fundamentalist platform...

MGM, do you worship under the iconic visage of Western Jesus or Eastern Jesus?

[MajGenl.Meade]

We don't have any images; just a simple stylized cross. That second chap looks very surprised, don't he?

[Crackpot]

Yeah I was thinking about that. I really doubt that “historical Jesus” image would have created so mush fuss if he wasn’t wearing an expression that said “There has been a catastrophic accident the hamster wheel and monosyllabic words are just too confusing right now.”

[Scooter]

White Evangelicals, This is Why People Are Through With You

JANUARY 24, 2018 / JOHN PAVLOVITZ

Dear White Evangelicals,

I need to tell you something: People have had it with you.

They’re done.

They want nothing to do with you any longer, and here’s why:

They see your hypocrisy, your inconsistency, your incredibly selective mercy, and your thinly veiled supremacy.

For eight years they watched you relentlessly demonize a black President; a man faithfully married for 26 years; a doting father and husband without a hint of moral scandal or the slightest whiff of infidelity.

They watched you deny his personal faith convictions, argue his birthplace, and assail his character—all without cause or evidence. They saw you brandish Scriptures to malign him and use the laziest of racial stereotypes in criticizing him.

And through it all, White Evangelicals—you never once suggested that God placed him where he was,
you never publicly offered prayers for him and his family,
you never welcomed him to your Christian Universities,
you never gave him the benefit of the doubt in any instance,
you never spoke of offering him forgiveness or mercy,
your evangelists never publicly thanked God for his leadership,
your pastors never took to the pulpit to offer solidarity with him,
you never made any effort to affirm his humanity or show the love of Jesus to him in any quantifiable measure.

You violently opposed him at every single turn—without offering a single ounce of the grace you claim as the heart of your faith tradition. You jettisoned Jesus as you dispensed damnation on him.

And yet you give carte blanche to a white Republican man so riddled with depravity, so littered with extramarital affairs, so unapologetically vile, with such a vast resume of moral filth—that the mind boggles.

And the change in you is unmistakable. It has been an astonishing conversion to behold: a being born again.

With him, you suddenly find religion.
With him, you’re now willing to offer full absolution.
With him, all is forgiven without repentance or admission.
With him you’re suddenly able to see some invisible, deeply buried heart.
With him, sin has become unimportant, compassion no longer a requirement.
With him, you see only Providence.

And White Evangelicals, all those people who have had it with you—they see it all clearly.

They recognize the toxic source of your inconsistency.

They see that pigmentation and party are your sole deities.
They see that you aren’t interested in perpetuating the love of God or emulating the heart of Jesus.
They see that you aren’t burdened to love the least, or to be agents of compassion, or to care for your Muslim, gay, African, female, or poor neighbors as yourself.
They see that all you’re really interested in doing, is making a God in your own ivory image and demanding that the world bow down to it.
They recognize this all about white, Republican Jesus—not dark-skinned Jesus of Nazareth.

And I know you don’t realize it, but you’re digging your own grave in these days; the grave of your very faith tradition.

Your willingness to align yourself with cruelty is a costly marriage. Yes, you’ve gained a Supreme Court seat, a few months with the Presidency as a mouthpiece, and the cheap high of temporary power—but you’ve lost a whole lot more.

You’ve lost an audience with millions of wise, decent, good-hearted, faithful people with eyes to see this ugliness.
You’ve lost any moral high ground or spiritual authority with a generation.
You’ve lost any semblance of Christlikeness.
You’ve lost the plot.
And most of all you’ve lost your soul.

I know it’s likely you’ll dismiss these words. The fact that you’ve even made your bed with such malevolence, shows how far gone you are and how insulated you are from the reality in front of you.

But I had to at least try to reach you. It’s what Jesus would do.

Maybe you need to read what he said again—if he still matters to you.

[Crackpot]

Again while the issues are relevant, the “white evangelicals” label is too broad a brush. (See Emo Phillips vid in other thread). You (general) are demonizing the group for the actions of a minority (although an admittedly sizable one) many of whom don’t even fit under the umbrella of “evangelical” (some aren’t even Christian). ( and i’m not even getting into the Catholics, JWs, Mormons, etc. aren’t “Christian” argument here).

But such a form letter needs to be written only instead of a broad based attack there needs to be a broad based call to action to call out those among them who hold and espouse these “beliefs”

[Scooter]

[MajGenl.Meade]

You (general) are demonizing the group for the actions of a minority

Phew! I thought for a minute you'd forgotten to capitalize. Not me then. It's odd that as a white, evangelical Christian myself, I'm not that bothered by the form letter - because it does at least seek to limit its application. But then, I don't identify with many (most?) that apply the term to themselves.

The cartoon that followed was a bit confused since it assumes that Jesus is usually depticted nailed to a cross in Protestant churches. That's not usually the case (never seen it); the empty cross or even no cross at all is typical of all churches I have belonged to. . . 6, including the township one here and add four more (but they are all black so I suppose black evangelical faiths don't count)(perhaps non-USA ones don't count?). It's the Romans who keep him on the cross - some difference in opinion as to permanent revolution or was that Trotsky?

Well, all Christians this... all white evangelicals that... all homosexuals this... all Jews that... all Moslems this... difficult to see the difference between one bigot and another

[Crackpot]

That is part of the problem tho Meade. Evangelicals, being such a fractious group, are far too willing to wash our hands of our brethren in name allowing for this hateful shit to spread in the name of the God we claim to follow and serve. We do a disservice to God by allowing him to be defined to the ones we claim to want to save by people who are seriously off message at best.

[MajGenl.Meade]

That is part of the problem tho Meade. Evangelicals, being such a fractious group, are far too willing to wash our hands of our brethren in name allowing for this hateful shit to spread in the name of the God we claim to follow and serve. We do a disservice to God by allowing him to be defined to the ones we claim to want to save by people who are seriously off message at best.

Maybe so, but how could it be different? True religion is preached and disseminated continuously but receives neither the attention nor the serious consideration of media or those with other agenda - and that's OK.

The distorters have their well-funded "Family Council" or whatever it is while the churches have. . . the churches. Is there need for any other organization to deliver the true message? We cannot, I think, stop the hateful shit - any more than the "other side" can. All we can do is point to truth.

I choose to be here where the majority position is one of mockery, abuse and ignorance (in the old sense of the term; not a pejorative) against God and the espousing of a worldview diametrically opposed to that of the Bible. Hence, as a believer in the truth of the Bible, I am held to be deficient and "less than". In most instances, I oppose the same "hateful shit" as others yet am confronted by "all Christians are..." statements; a hallmark of bigots, whichever tent they shelter in. Opposing that is intended to be the opposite of allowing the Falwells of the world to define Christ.

[Crackpot]

Will it stop them? probably not. But, it does eventually work in creating a diistinction. It wasn’t all that long ago that Westboro Baptist was thought to speak for all Baptists now they aren’t even associated with “Christian”. Do you know why? Enough Christian organizations took the time to denounce the assholes.