Those who call themselves Christians

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Scooter »

Lord Jim wrote:However, since I do fall into the category of "any Christian" I did see myself referenced in this :
More Christian than any Christian:
And please remind us about the last time you, or any Christian you know, stood outside the house of worship of another faith, acting as a human shield in the defence of those inside.

Because unless you have, you have no call to get sanctimonious about it, and should just serve yourself a big helping of STFU.
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Crackpot
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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I was unaware that standing outside others place of worship was the primary factor for determining ones Christianity...
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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John 15:13

Except in this case, those standing outside the door recognized that "friends" doesn't mean "those who are the same as me".
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Crackpot
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Don’t see how that is confined to loitering outside places of worship.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Scooter »

Loitering? Seriously? You're rivaling Joe Guy with the Mickey the Dunce routine on this one.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Or this--Matthew 26:38-40 (Jesus to Peter, John, and Jamesin the Garden of Gethsemane after the last supper):

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

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Crackpot
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Scooter wrote:Loitering? Seriously? You're rivaling Joe Guy with the Mickey the Dunce routine on this one.
No you are the one that is marking this event (and ones like it) as “more Christian than any Christian” to the point of precluding any event that a Christian has done as not up to snuff of this event.

You sir do not control the market on obnoxious hyperbole.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Crackpot
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Speaking of which. Since Westboro Baptist has picketed places.of worship and during such displays zero shootings have occurred would they then be “the best Christians”?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Scooter »

You've read the story of the Good Samaritan, right? How many Christians do you know that truly live up to the spirit of what Jesus was saying they should be doing?

These folks were truly doing it that day, at the far from insignificant risk to their own lives, given the times we are living in, irrespective of your refusal to see it.

The last comment, pretty much unworthy of you, so I'll let it pass.
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RayThom
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Those who call themselves Christians

Post by RayThom »

Re: The religio-political cartoons above. I found none of them to be offensive. They are someone's visual opinions and, as we all know about opinions, everybody has one -- or many.

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“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

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Crackpot
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Scooter wrote:You've read the story of the Good Samaritan, right? How many Christians do you know that truly live up to the spirit of what Jesus was saying they should be doing?

These folks were truly doing it that day, at the far from insignificant risk to their own lives, given the times we are living in, irrespective of your refusal to see it.
Many do such things. most do it without seeking attention. And those folks above were doing something highly commendable and truthfully something that should shame the greater Christian community. (The deafening silence from any Christian leadership on this front irks me to no end as well as the he way they/we define the “church” varies in size depending on the situation we love to soak in the adulation of others good deeds but we become maddeningly sectarian when something bad happens). But that is not the point in contention here. It is your statement that this event somehow outshines all things ever done by all Christians. Not some not many or even most (we would have to give you that heck you could probably successfully argue “the vast majority”). But all. And that frankly is ludicrous

The last comment, pretty much unworthy of you, so I'll let it pass.
So given that many people of all stripes (even Christians) have in fact given thier lives for others (not just put themselves at risk) it is logical to deduce that there must be something else about this event that made them more Christian and the only germane piece of information seems to be picketing outside of a place of worship.

Your continued argument that this event made this group better than any Christian. Given that there are many historical examples of Christians acting selflessly even toward non-Christians there must be something else unique about this group that makes this so.

I opined that it might be the picketing at a place of worship thing. Am I wrong? If so what exactly makes them better than “any”.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Lord Jim »

Scooter wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:However, since I do fall into the category of "any Christian" I did see myself referenced in this :
More Christian than any Christian:
And please remind us about the last time you, or any Christian you know, stood outside the house of worship of another faith, acting as a human shield in the defence of those inside.

Because unless you have, you have no call to get sanctimonious about it, and should just serve yourself a big helping of STFU.
Oh brother... :roll:

This may come as a surprise to you, but in my neck of the woods, there hasn't been a big problem with houses of worship (of any faith) being threatened or attacked, so doing that would look like pure grandstanding...

The clear implication of your use of the word "any" in the context that you used it, is that Christians as an entire group are somehow less concerned about attacks on houses of worship of people of other faiths than non-Christians (Muslims, in your specific example)...

This is demonstrably false, given all the help (financial, and otherwise) that Christians, Christian organizations and Christian Churches have contributed to the victims of these attacks, just in the US (Jewish, Muslim, Sikh)

Insisting on physically standing guard in front of the place of worship's entrance as the only yardstick to show genuine help and concern is a complete strawman... (Apparently you prefer reaching for this strawman to simply admitting that you over stated your point by using the word "any")

And on the topic of sanctimoniousness, permit me to quote a bit of scripture that seems particularly apropos:

From Matthew 7:5:
first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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If this had been five Christians standing guard outside that synagogue, and I had said they were more Christian than any Christian (except themselves), it would have passed virtually without comment, even though both are saying essentially the same thing. You might want to think about why panties got twisted when the individuals in question were not Christian, but Muslim.
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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

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Lord Jim
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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If this had been five Christians standing guard outside that synagogue, and I had said they were more Christian than any Christian (except themselves), it would have passed virtually without comment,
You know that how? I for one would have found it comment worthy, given all the many ways and times many other Christians have come to the aide of those of different faiths who have been attacked in this country. (As I pointed out earlier)
You might want to think about why panties got twisted when the individuals in question were not Christian, but Muslim.
Yeah, because I have such a track record for being anti-Muslim, and not praising Muslims who come to the aid of those outside their faith when they've been attacked...

Oh wait, I'm the guy who posted this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19181&p=262223&hili ... ue#p262223

(In a follow-up to a post of yours)

There are of course ways in which you could have had this pass "virtually without comment"...

You could have chosen to qualify your statement in a way that didn't create a broad brush attack on all Christians...

You could have said something like "More Christian than many so-called Christians"...

Or : " More Christian than a lot of people who think of themselves as Christians"...

Or any of numerous other constructions I could think of ...

But you chose not to do that....

And now, rather than stopping and thinking (something you are happily advising others to do) about whether or not the use of the word "any" was appropriate or well advised in the context you used it, (and perhaps conceding that it might not have been, and then moving on) you've chosen to try and create tortured rationalizations to justify it, and then try throw those who have criticized you for it on the defensive by unfairly impugning their motives without any justification whatsoever for doing so.

Instead of simply admitting what seems fairly obvious (that your use of the word "any" created an unfairly over-broad characterization) and putting this in the rear view mirror, you seem to have decided to borrow rube's hole digging shovel...
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri May 17, 2019 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Jews and Christians stand guard while Muslims pray inside California mosque

SEASIDE, Cal. — Jews and Christians and people of no faith gathered together outside of a mosque in Seaside on Friday to make sure Muslims inside felt safe while they prayed.

The interfaith gathering echoed a national day of reflection in New Zealand to mark a week since the shootings at two mosques in Christchurch that killed 50 people.

Rabbi Bruce Greenbaum of Congregation Beth Israel helped to organize the demonstration at the Islamic Society of Monterey County.

“We wanted to send out a very strong message that we support their presence in our community that following the tragedy, the horrific shooting in New Zealand, we don’t ever want them to be concerned that it could happen here,” said Greenbaum.

Dozens of interfaith leaders gathered outside the mosque ahead of the midday call to prayer. Many holding signs reading “We love Muslims we will keep watch while you pray.”

The Islamic Society of Monterey County has about 1,000 members and attendees say it’s a community that first brought a mosque to Monterey in 1959.

“We want to be neighbors, just because we might have religious or ideological differences doesn’t mean we can’t be neighbors in our community,” said community leader Brian Bajari.

Bajari attends All Things New Church in Monterey and has been a leader on the peninsula helping to bring groups of different faiths together.

The Islamic Society of Monterey County has long participated in the interfaith gatherings and on Friday mosque attendees were busy making their friends welcome.

“Everyone is hugging and shaking hands, the members of the Islamic center here are coming out with cookies and trying to take care of us,” said Mark Peake the senior pastor at First Presbyterian in Monterey.

Sadly the gathering was the second organized over the last year to show solidarity following a shooting targeting a specific religion. The last was a gathering at Congregation Beth Israel following a mass shooting in October at a Pittsburgh Pennsylvania synagogue that left 11 dead.
https://fox4kc.com/2019/03/24/jews-and- ... ia-mosque/
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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Lord Jim wrote:You could have chosen to qualify your statement in a way that didn't create a broad brush attack on all Christians...
How does pointing out virtue in some constitute an "attack" on others?

If I had said, "Paul is a better math student than any I have ever had," does that mean I am "attacking" the math skills of every other math student? Or am I just praising what I see as Paul's extraordinary skills?

Again, those who read it that way need to ask themselves why they saw it as an "attack".

eta - As to why I used "any", I did so because that sort of assistance rendered between religions that are traditionally seen as being at odds, particularly geopolitically, made the gesture rise to something that I saw as above and beyond the call. Just because that happened to be the criteria I chose in this instance, doesn't mean that I am judging every Christian to be a failure by that standard, which is the spin that others appear to be putting on it.
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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Lord Jim wrote:you've chosen to try and create tortured rationalizations to justify it, and then try throw those who have criticized you for it on the defensive by unfairly impugning their motives without any justification whatsoever for doing so.
But of course no one was imputing motives to me by claiming that the original statement was an "attack" on Christians, and some of the similar comments that were made.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Lord Jim »

How does pointing out virtue in some constitute an "attack" on others?
Okay...

Let's go back to the exact statement again:
More Christian than any Christian
Are you saying that in that context you meant "any Christian" to mean something other than "all Christians"?

I'm having a hard time seeing how that can be read any other way...
If I had said, "Paul is a better math student than any I have ever had," does that mean I am "attacking" the math skills of every other math student? Or am I just praising what I see as Paul's extraordinary skills?
Not a good analogy, because in that example your statement is qualified, ( "...any I have ever had")

If you had said some thing like, "More Christian than any Christian I have ever personally known", then that would be an apt analogy...
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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

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Lord Jim wrote:Are you saying that in that context you meant "any Christian" to mean something other than "all Christians"?
That is what I meant. What it doesn't mean is that I consider all Christians to be bad people as a consequence, or any other interpretation that could be construed as an "attack".

I can believe that there are lots and lots and lots of Christians who perform lots and lots and lots of admirable acts, and still choose to believe that this particular act was "extra good" in terms of what Christians are called to do.

Anyone can disagree with my obviously subjective assessment, without having to construe it as an "attack" on Christians.
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