When feminists fall out...

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Gob
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When feminists fall out...

Post by Gob »

The patriarchy wins!! Go us men!! Go us boys!!
Blaming women for the ills of the world might appear an odd feminist call to action.

But an idea gaining traction is that the “white feminism” dominant in the United States and the UK is not only a driving force of societal racism, but responsible for a host of other bad things, from the war on terror to the hypersexualisation of women in popular culture, to the dreadful abuses of power we see in international aid. It’s part of a growing tendency on the left to look for scapegoats at the cost of building the solidarity needed for social change.

This is not to downplay the extent of racial inequalities in the UK, the way they affect women of colour and the structural racism that lies behind them. But it’s quite a jump to move from the observation that women are no more immune to racism than men to holding the feminist movement accountable for the plight of women of colour around the world. A new book, Against White Feminism, by Rafia Zakaria, makes precisely this case. To stack up the argument, she stereotypes feminism beyond recognition as a shallow, consumerist and exclusionary movement dominated by selfish white women who care little about scrutinising the male violence perpetrated by white men.

Feminism is a broad movement: look for it and you’ll find superficial strands. But to reduce feminism to this alone is to ignore the British tradition of radical grassroots feminism that has brought women of all colours and classes together in the fight against patriarchal male violence. In one of the best-known examples, Justice for Women and Southall Black Sisters worked together from the early 1990s to get long prison sentences overturned for women driven to kill their abusive partners following the most dreadful prolonged abuse.

In the case of Kiranjit Ahluwalia, Southall Black Sisters led with Justice for Women standing alongside. “It brought women – black and white, young and old, professionals and survivors – together in a wonderful moment of unity to highlight injustice and change things for the better,” says Pragna Patel, a founding member of Southall Black Sisters. “There were differences, but it was only through solidarity with each other that we could create change. The black feminist tradition has challenged feminism’s blind spots around race and class not in the interests of separatism, but to strengthen our collective movement.” The women’s refuge movement provides similar examples.

Attacks on white feminism are the product of a broader divide in the anti-racist movement about the best route to social change. Is it by making well-intentioned people who are unwittingly complicit in replicating inequalities feel guilt and shame for their “white privilege”? Or by inviting them to feel a shared sense of injustice in a way that emphasises common belonging to a movement, without glossing over difference? Feminists such as Zakaria fall into the former camp. But guilt and shame can make solidarity harder, not easier, to build.

The mainstream anti-racist left has a bad track record of hanging out to dry women of colour challenging misogyny within their communities, for fear of upsetting cultural sensitivities. Examples abound: the Newsnight investigation that revealed several Muslim female councillors who have experienced pressure not to stand from Asian Labour party members, which prompted the Muslim Women’s Network to call for an inquiry into systemic misogyny in the party that was met with overwhelming silence; the smears the MP Naz Shah has faced from local Asian men in her party; the negative response to the anti-FGM activist Nimco Ali from her local Labour party. The white privilege discourse makes this more not less likely, because it makes people more scared of being culturally insensitive.

Indeed, reading Zakaria’s book, one gets the impression that white women can’t win, damned for speaking only of their own experience, but scolded for getting involved in fights that aren’t their own. The irony is that radical feminism has often run counter to the mainstream left on this precisely because it regards female oppression as cross-cultural. Intimate partner killings, female genital mutilation or forced marriage: it’s all patriarchal violence at the hands of men, a universal female experience.

Not only this: white feminism critiques strengthen patriarchal forces by falling into the trap of the privilege Olympics. We need analysis of outcomes by class, race and sex to understand the extent of inequalities, but it should never be overextended to imply all white women are more privileged than women of colour (consider how obscene it would be to suggest that a white 18-year-old leaving care could ever be considered more privileged than me).

Yet that is exactly what lazy polemics about terrible white feminism do: they empower men to use the fact that all white women are supposedly high up in the privilege pecking order to tell middle-aged women to shut up or, even worse, accuse them of weaponising their abuse and trauma. It doesn’t help women of colour, either: it implicitly posits Asian male crime against women as somehow lesser than white male crime, because Asian men are victims too.

This is part of a broader trend on the left towards fracture, where attacking people with whom you share quite a bit in common is now seen as a laudable displacement activity for the Southall Black Sisters/Justice for Women approach to real change. It is telling that Zakaria chose not to engage with a critical book review by Joan Smith, the longstanding campaigner against domestic violence, instead launching a personal attack on her “old and white” appearance.

“Be kind” is not a platitude, it is a political slogan, for without kindness, how can we foster the solidarity that must be built, not demanded? Making well-meaning but imperfect people feel terrible about themselves may sell books, generate outrage and indulge some people’s masochistic tendencies, but the one thing it will never ever do is change the world for the better.

Sonia Sodha is an Observer columnist


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... inner--men
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

It's this kind of crap which makes me scared that internal fighting among progressives and liberals will open the door for Trump 2.0 in 2024. Let alone the Senate and possibly even the House in just over a year.

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Crackpot
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Crackpot »

Are you kidding? It was a minor miracle for the moderates to unite under The least common denominator that is Joe Biden that barely prevented a second Trump term.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

...and nobody cares, do they make a sound?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Gob »

A veritable cacophony of sound I should imagine....
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

Jarlaxle
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Jarlaxle »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:12 pm
It's this kind of crap which makes me scared that internal fighting among progressives and liberals will open the door for Trump 2.0 in 2024. Let alone the Senate and possibly even the House in just over a year.
Damn, I hope so!

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Econoline
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Econoline »

Just out of curiosity, Jarl, could you tell us how, specifically, your life was better under Trump than it was under Obama, and better than it is now?
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

rubato
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by rubato »

Econoline wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:15 am
Just out of curiosity, Jarl, could you tell us how, specifically, your life was better under Trump than it was under Obama, and better than it is now?
Trump validated Jarls hatred of the people he hates and validated Jarl's moronic world view. Heady stuff if you can barely think like an adult.

yrs,
rubato

Jarlaxle
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Jarlaxle »

Econoline wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:15 am
Just out of curiosity, Jarl, could you tell us how, specifically, your life was better under Trump than it was under Obama, and better than it is now?
Just off the top of my head: lower taxes, better border security, lower fuel prices.

Jarlaxle
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Jarlaxle »

rubato wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:55 am
]

Trump validated Jarls hatred of the people he hates and validated Jarl's moronic world view. Heady stuff if you can barely think like an adult.

yrs,
rubato
Sit down, Ozzie, the adults are talking now.

liberty
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by liberty »

rubato wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:55 am
Econoline wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:15 am
Just out of curiosity, Jarl, could you tell us how, specifically, your life was better under Trump than it was under Obama, and better than it is now?
Trump validated Jarls hatred of the people he hates and validated Jarl's moronic world view. Heady stuff if you can barely think like an adult.

yrs,
rubato
Biden’s inflation is stealing what little money I have. A lot of poor people are being made a lot poorer by Joe Biden, the Manchurian president. We had a booming economy and low inflation under trump; sorry if you don’t like that; however, that was the way it was.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

liberty wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:26 am
Biden’s inflation is stealing what little money I have. A lot of poor people are being made a lot poorer by Joe Biden, the Manchurian president. We had a booming economy and low inflation under trump; sorry if you don’t like that; however, that was the way it was.
Because Trump inherited a strong, healthy economy after eight years under Obama.   And it took him less than three years to run it into the ground because the only things he was doing was rage-tweeting and jetting off to a golf course somewhere on the average of once every four days — not to mention fomenting violence as seen at various Trump rallies and public demonstrations such as Charlottesville, culminating in an all-out assault by Trump supporters on the U.S. Capitol and Congress.

And of course, the low prices for fuel under Trump were a direct result of his inaction to do anything about the COVID crisis when there was still time to do something about it.  Then, once the country was locked down, far fewer people were driving and the result was a glut of gasoline which drove the prices down, in some cases to levels not seen since the 1980s.  Now that the country is starting to come back to pre-pandemic activity levels, fuel consumption is up ... and (surprise! surprise!) so are prices.

As far as "what little money you have", you've already told us that you took up drafting in the 'Job Corpse' in 1968 but 'didn't learn until later that drafting was not well paid in my town' and lamented that you should have taken up mechanical repair of some kind, which would lead one to assume that you are NOT employed as a mechanic or something like that.   Then in that same thread you stated that you never DID finish the drafting course since you got a draft notice — and then couldn't pass the physical, so I assume you have no military experience either.

So just what DID you do for a living that has left you penniless at your present stage in life, and so perpetually pissed off at your current conditions that you've swallowed every bit of Trump's drivel about 'Making America Great Again' ?
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

liberty
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by liberty »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:35 am
liberty wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:26 am
Biden’s inflation is stealing what little money I have. A lot of poor people are being made a lot poorer by Joe Biden, the Manchurian president. We had a booming economy and low inflation under trump; sorry if you don’t like that; however, that was the way it was.
Because Trump inherited a strong, healthy economy after eight years under Obama.   And it took him less than three years to run it into the ground because the only things he was doing was rage-tweeting and jetting off to a golf course somewhere on the average of once every four days — not to mention fomenting violence as seen at various Trump rallies and public demonstrations such as Charlottesville, culminating in an all-out assault by Trump supporters on the U.S. Capitol and Congress.

And of course, the low prices for fuel under Trump were a direct result of his inaction to do anything about the COVID crisis when there was still time to do something about it.  Then, once the country was locked down, far fewer people were driving and the result was a glut of gasoline which drove the prices down, in some cases to levels not seen since the 1980s.  Now that the country is starting to come back to pre-pandemic activity levels, fuel consumption is up ... and (surprise! surprise!) so are prices.

As far as "what little money you have", you've already told us that you took up drafting in the 'Job Corpse' in 1968 but 'didn't learn until later that drafting was not well paid in my town' and lamented that you should have taken up mechanical repair of some kind, which would lead one to assume that you are NOT employed as a mechanic or something like that.   Then in that same thread you stated that you never DID finish the drafting course since you got a draft notice — and then couldn't pass the physical, so I assume you have no military experience either.

So just what DID you do for a living that has left you penniless at your present stage in life, and so perpetually pissed off at your current conditions that you've swallowed every bit of Trump's drivel about 'Making America Great Again' ?
Image
-"BB"-
I never said I was needy; how much money is enough money? That is relative. To an insecure person, I don’t know if you can have enough money before you feel like you have enough. However much money I have, Biden is stealing it through inflation. What good does it do to put money aside so that my children can have a financial security blanket for the coming disaster that liberals produced in this country when Biden is just going to steal it?

I went into the Air Force instead of the army to keep my mother from having a stroke. But I volunteered for any combat position in Air the Force; however, my aptitude tests showed my strength to be in electrical and mechanical. My training was as a radar repair technician. I’ve worked in electronics as a technician ever since, except for a short time I worked as a personal assistant to a millionaire.

This could have been one of my sites: Battle of Lima Site 85 - Wikipedia

Battle of Lima Site 85
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Battle of Lima Site 85, also called Battle of Phou Pha Thi, was fought as part of a military campaign waged during the Vietnam War and Laotian Civil War by the North Vietnamese People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) and the Pathet Lao, against airmen of the United States Air Force (USAF)'s 1st Combat Evaluation Group, elements of the Royal Lao Army, Royal Thai Border Patrol Police, and the Central Intelligence Agency-led Hmong Clandestine Army. The battle was fought on Phou Pha Thi mountain in Houaphanh Province, Laos, on 10 March 1968, and derives its name from the mountaintop where it was fought or from the designation of a 700 feet (210 m) landing strip in the valley below, and was the largest single ground combat loss of United States Air Force members during the Vietnam War.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

Big RR
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Big RR »

Well I saw mine go with additional taxes under Trump after he capped the property tax deduction. I'll give Biden a bt more time to reverse it before I bitch, but I won't forget Trump was the one who started it, not to forget how he also ran up the deficit, which is also a big problem.The man wouldn't raise taxes except on those who did not vote for him. Jerk!

Jarlaxle
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Jarlaxle »

Why, again, should I subsidize your property taxes?

Big RR
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Big RR »

Because it's generally a given that you do not pay taxes on monies paid in taxes to other jurisdictions (even jurisdictions foreign to the US). Businesses get these deductions, why should individuals be any different? Oh, that's right; they didn't vote for Trump.

Jarlaxle
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Jarlaxle »

If only that were true...

Big RR
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Big RR »

You maintain it is not and you cannot generally deduct taxes paid to other jurisdictions from your taxable income.? Go ahead and quote the law or regs that support you?

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

If I want I can claim foreign taxes - e.g., UK takes paid on my UK income - as deductions on my worldwide income. As a US resident my total income, including foreign derived, is US taxable. IRS Form 1116.

Edited to add: that's the form for individuals. Corporations use Form 1118. I just looked it up.

Jarlaxle
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Re: When feminists fall out...

Post by Jarlaxle »

Big RR wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:45 am
You maintain it is not and you cannot generally deduct taxes paid to other jurisdictions from your taxable income.? Go ahead and quote the law or regs that support you?
I pay a pile of taxes I can't deduct from my federal income taxes, from car taxes to sales taxes to excise taxes to state income tax.

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