Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

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Joe Guy
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Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Joe Guy »

An Arizona priest used one wrong word in baptisms for decades. They're all invalid

A Catholic priest in Arizona has resigned after he was found to have performed baptisms incorrectly throughout his career, rendering the rite invalid for thousands of people.

The Catholic Diocese of Phoenix announced on its website that it determined after careful study that the Rev. Andres Arango had used the wrong wording in baptisms performed up until June 17, 2021. He had been off by a single word.

During baptisms in both English and Spanish, Arango used the phrase "we baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." He should have said "I baptize," the diocese explained.

"It is not the community that baptizes a person and incorporates them into the Church of Christ; rather, it is Christ, and Christ alone, who presides at all sacraments; therefore, it is Christ who baptizes," it said. "If you were baptized using the wrong words, that means your baptism is invalid, and you are not baptized."

Diocese spokesperson Katie Burke told NPR over email that Arango is believed to have used the incorrect word since the beginning of his priesthood in 1995.

"I do not have an exact number of people affected, but I believe they number in the thousands," she added.

Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted said in a statement that the error was first reported to him and confirmed after an investigation by diocesan officials in consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome. He noted that the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith affirmed in 2020 that baptisms conferred with the phrase "We baptize you" are not valid.

Similar discoveries were made in 2020 in Detroit and Oklahoma City, Burke said. She added that Arango's error "was brought to the attention of the diocese by lay faithful who were aware of it happening in other places and of the Vatican's response, and who knew it to be incorrect when they heard it happen here in Phoenix," which she estimates must have been around June 2021.

As far as the diocese is aware, all of the other sacraments that Arango conferred are valid. But because baptism is the "sacrament that grants access to all the others," a botched baptism could invalidate any subsequent sacraments, including confirmation, marriage and holy orders.

"What this means for you is, if your baptism was invalid and you've received other sacraments, you may need to repeat some or all of those sacraments after you are validly baptized as well," the diocese said.

Arango — who first joined St. Gregory Parish in 2015 after decades of religious service in Brazil, California and Arizona — apologized for the inconvenience his actions had caused and told the community that he resigned as pastor effective Feb. 1.

He said he would devote his energy and full-time ministry "to help remedy this and heal those affected." He remains a priest in good standing, according to the diocese.

"I do not believe Fr. Andres had any intentions to harm the faithful or deprive them of the grace of baptism and the sacraments," Olmsted wrote. "On behalf of our local Church, I too am sincerely sorry that this error has resulted in disruption to the sacramental lives of a number of the faithful. This is why I pledge to take every step necessary to remedy the situation for everyone impacted."

Olmsted is seeking help in identifying those in need of the sacraments and encouraging anyone who believes their own baptism was affected to call their parish for more information. The diocese also has an online form for people to fill out if they or their child was baptized by Arango.

Officials said they are working closely with Arango and his former parishes to notify anyone who may have been baptized invalidly. It advises people who are unsure about Arango's involvement to check their files for a baptismal certificate or refer back to photos and videos from the ceremony.

The diocese said that while the situation may seem legalistic, the words, materials and actions are crucial aspects of every sacrament — and changing any of them makes them invalid.

"For example, if a priest uses milk instead of wine during the Consecration of the Eucharist, the sacrament is not valid," it said. "The milk would not become the Blood of Jesus Christ."
Holy Shit!

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/15/1080829813/priest-resigns-baptisms

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Long Run
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Long Run »

Water under the bridge, we think not!

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I'm curious - if a priest is later found to have been (say) sexually active with little boys and girls, are his prior baptisms / weddings / confirmations etc all null and void and must be redone? Asking for a friend . . .

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by BoSoxGal »

I’m assuming the thread title is meant to be a pun?

This story is a great argument against organized religion. Stinks to high heaven! Where God is not amused.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Joe Guy
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Joe Guy »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:11 pm
I’m assuming the thread title is meant to be a pun?
No. It was a stupid mistake but I'll leave it there since you helped me out by saying the story stinks.
BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:11 pm
This story is a great argument against organized religion. Stinks to high heaven! Where God is not amused.
It reeks... 8-)

Burning Petard
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Burning Petard »

But think of the heartbreak for all those Roman Catholic priests who now discover that they have shared the body and blood of the very God with unworthy pagans--all those who were not really baptized. Oh, the Humanity! Or perhaps the unGodly.

RayThom would have loved the irony of this story.


snailgate

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Joe Guy
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Joe Guy »

Regarding this last line of the story: "For example, if a priest uses milk instead of wine during the Consecration of the Eucharist, the sacrament is not valid," it said. "The milk would not become the Blood of Jesus Christ."

I wonder if a priest would be committing a technical foul and be fired if he used Manischewitz wine?

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Scooter
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Scooter »

This right here. This prioritizing of legalism and dogma over love and grace is the reason why organized religion has lost any claim to speak for God or to assert any moral authority. Whitewashed sepulchers indeed.

Given the incredibly wide range of baptismal liturgies that the Church of Rome is willing to accept as valid, it would have cost nothing for the Church to say that, while the language used was illicit, it was clear that all involved were acting in good faith and with a proper understanding of the meaning of the sacrament, and so the baptisms would be considered valid. Instead, it chose to tell thousands of people that they are outside the body of Christ. It cast doubt on their ability to be saved, as well as on the validity of any other sacraments they received. Meaning, for example, that any of them who were married in a Catholic Church without also undergoing a civil ceremony, would find their marriages invalid not only in the eyes of the Church, but also in the eyes of the state.

To add to the insult, this priest is fired ("resigned" my ass) while having always acted in good faith, while the Church actively shielded priests who raped children and allowed them to continue in ministry.
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Scooter wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:45 am
This right here. This prioritizing of legalism and dogma over love and grace is the reason why organized religion the Roman church has lost any claim to speak for God or to assert any moral authority.
FTFY

Assuming that "disorganized religion" is not recommended. Quite agree with the rest of Scooter's remarks.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Gob »

If only god had written a clear set of instructions, ones which there could be no debate over.

Silly, incompetent, god.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

What silly expectations you have! It's quite clear that people shouldn't go around murdering other people isn't it? The laws of the UK and other places are quite clear. But people do it anyway.

And yet you don't blame the ones who write of how things should be, do you? You blame the people who disobey and/or disagree.

The fact that the Roman church (sadly not alone in making stuff up but egregiously wronger than the uvvers) chooses to make up rules that have nothing to do with the scriptures (wot God rote) never seems to bother you. No, you blame the author and not the actors

Keep it up!
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by BoSoxGal »

Sorry Meade but your superiority is misplaced; it is not only the Roman church which puts legalism and dogma over love and grace, which is why the numbers of congregants in Protestant denominations are also falling off precipitously in recent years. Organized religion is rank with hypocrisy across the board. Many men are full of evil and such men are drawn to positions of power over other people by which to perpetrate their evil and the church has for millennia been a vehicle for atrocities of all kinds, and continues to be.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Big RR
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Big RR »

True Meade, but then for the most part you do accept which writings the Roman (and other catholic churches) and others (including Judaism) have previously said are scriptural (i.e. "wot God said"). Sure, there may be some dispute as to what writings are scriptural and what are apocryphal (or not), but for the most part the Christian churches (and jewish congregations, when it comes to the OT) are in agreement as to what books are scriptural.

There is no scriptural basis fro how the books are to be selected, yet people organize to select them (just as they put together creeds and prayers and ceremonies). It's always nice to say your beliefs are "sola scritura", but then you have no basis to say this is what God said.

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:16 pm
it is not only the Roman church which puts legalism and dogma over love and grace
Superiority?

Yes and that is why I wrote
the Roman church (sadly not alone in making stuff up . . )
But they've been at it for a lot longer than the newcomers :D
Last edited by MajGenl.Meade on Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

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Not if you ask many Protestants
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:28 pm
There is no scriptural basis for how the books are to be selected, yet people organize to select them (just as they put together creeds and prayers and ceremonies). It's always nice to say your beliefs are "sola scriptura", but then you have no basis to say this is what God said.
Well, sure if you say there's no basis then obviously there's no basis. Can't think why I didn't think of that telling argument :lol:

"Three principal criteria seemed to emerge which the early church used in recognizing books that had been God inspired and thus canonical: apostolic origin, recognition by the churches, and apostolic content"

One would think you believe there were 300 or so competing books and some jokers got together and threw 27 darts to see which ones "God" selected. Now, I recognize that it's clear Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (four of the original aposts) are not the actual authors of those four gospels. Indeed, the book of John is more likely composed by believers of a Johanine sect, and maybe John (who knows?) as a densely theological exploration of the meaning of Christ.

Most of Paul's letters were written by Paul - some not - 2Peter almost certainly was not written by Peter, altho 1Peter probably was. The earliest NT writings were by Paul and qualify as apostolic origin and content as well as being recognized by the various churches as such. The Eastern mob of course don't accept Revelation and my own rule is to not read Revelation until I understand every last word of all other scriptures (ie never)

None of them are books of "rules". All of them to greater or lesser effect write what BSG correctly characterizes as love and grace. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that you have no basis to say that these things are NOT what God said (OK, inspired).
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Crackpot wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:48 pm
Not if you ask many Protestants
Not what? Be clear, man. Be clear! (quote from L Ron Hubbard)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Big RR »

Three principal criteria seemed to emerge which the early church
And what early church is that? The RC church (and perhaps the Eastern catholic churches)? So you accept their choice of what writings are scriptural and reject their traditions? Why? Again, you can believe what you want, and pick and choose as you see fit, but that does not place you in a superior position.

And, FWIW, the Orthodox churches do not universally reject Revelation; it is part of the Orthodox Bible. I have sung for a couple of years at a Greek Orthodox church and while I have not heard the Revelation read in bible lessons, I have heard it discussed during the sermons (and we are planning a concert in the Spring of a cantata based on the Revelation (it's in Byzantine Greek so I cannot say that the words are the same as the western churches interpretations, but the little I can understand suggest it is).

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that you have no basis to say that these things are NOT what God said (OK, inspired). Sure, but then I don't base my beliefs solely on the approved scriptures, or say they are based on what god said and set forth in the Bible, which I have seen you say. FWIW, I don't agree with the position of the dioceses as being binding on whether a baptism is valid (whatever that means) because of some illicit language, but it's their church, not mine (and things like this are why it's not mine).

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Crackpot »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:59 pm
Crackpot wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:48 pm
Not if you ask many Protestants
Not what? Be clear, man. Be clear! (quote from L Ron Hubbard)
Been at it a lot longer than the RCC. I have heard many claims of not having any genetic history with them whatsoever.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Gob
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Gob »

We really need a competent god to sort this all out.
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