Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by BoSoxGal »

Burning Petard wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:00 pm
Don't change the bible? Where have you been in the arguments about the King James Version, the New International Version, the New Revised Standard Edition, the New Jerusalem Bible, the Message? And that is only for the English language.

snailgate
Don’t forget the Good News Bible complete with Annie Vallotton’s famous line drawings! That’s the kind that the church gifted me in my youthful experience of Christianity, and somehow even though I have searched my heart intensely and cannot fathom a belief in God or any invisible sky entity, it still sits upon my shelf 45 years later - it just seems somehow wrong to throw it away.
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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Joe Guy
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

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God is a religious person's explanation for everything that science has not yet been able to clarify.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:40 pm
Mormons don’t change the Bible either, Meade. The Book of Mormon is ANOTHER TESTAMENT of Jesus Christ.
Smith "revised" th Bible - as your own post stated. That is, "changed"

Source:
While working on his revision of the Bible, Joseph Smith did not employ Hebrew and Greek sources, lexicons, or a knowledge of biblical languages to render a new English text. Rather, he used a copy of the King James Bible as the starting point for his translation, dictating inspired changes and additions to scribes. At first, the scribes rewrote the entire text including the changes. Later, Joseph marked his Bible showing where changes should be inserted, and the scribes wrote only the changed text.

Joseph’s revisions fall into several categories. His early work on the translation resulted in long revealed passages that Joseph dictated to his scribes, much as he did when receiving the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants.2 These passages sometimes dramatically expanded the biblical text. The best-known example of this type of revision is found today in the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. Joseph heavily revised some passages, such as Matthew 24, adding phrases, rearranging verses, and making other significant changes.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Burning Petard wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:00 pm
Don't change the bible? Where have you been in the arguments about the King James Version, the New International Version, the New Revised Standard Edition, the New Jerusalem Bible, the Message? And that is only for the English language.
I've been reading them all from time to time.

Please - none of them "change" the Bible. I agree that translating the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek into any other language must of course be a 'change' of some sort. But is of language - not meaning. The ancients wouldn't recognize our modern bibles - especially where they note that some verses were "not in the oldest and best" manuscripts.

The works you mention use different English words to deliver the same message. None of them suddenly declares that Jesus was in fact a Roman slave, freed by the actions of space creatures. None of them declare that God does not exist. They agree with each other.

Some publications are translations interwoven with commentary. The Amplified Bible for example. It is not purely translation and by the word "Amplified" they let people know that it isn't "the regular" one. Of course, folks call it a bible but it ain't exactly - it's bible+ I suppose you might think they have "changed" the Bible but I'm not sure.

Some people think the KJV is the only "correct" Bible. I don't understand the logic - apparently a long-dead Scottish king "Authorized" it so that's that. :?

Many people have a favorite translation and some they don't like at all. I prefer the English Standard to the NIV or others. I enjoy the poetry of the KJV but it's a poor translation in many ways. I don't care for some of the recent versions which decide not to "translate" but instead to expand. But I have four versions on my laptop) and use Biblegateway.com to access many more. I find they can all be helpful at times.

Prov 17:9:
Overlook an offense and bond a friendship; fasten on to a slight and—good-bye, friend! (The Message)

If you want people to like you, forgive them when they wrong you. Remembering wrongs can break up a friendship. (Good News)

are not quite as interesting as but more easily understood than:
Whoever covers an offense seeks love, but he who repeats a matter separates close friends (ESV)

Some months ago, I was asked if I'd prepare and deliver a brief message to a "church" consisting of farm workers who don't speak Afrikaans (nor do I) - Malawi, Zimbabwe and Limpopo (in SA but not at all Afrikaner). This handful of folks have English in common. After the first visit, they asked me to come every Sunday. We are the Sojourners. I use the New English Translation - which I'm not hugely fond of - because the words are much easier for them. But the words don't "change" the Bible. The Bible changes the person.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Burning Petard »

1. Mormons (officially the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, does not use the Joseph Smith Jr. version of the bible (sometimes called the Inspired Version, and officially "The Holy Scriptures", and is only generically a bible. The copy right for that bible is owned by another religious denomination, 'Community of Christ'. I am not an expert on Copy Right. That may have come into public domain recently. But the rivalry between the two organizations prevented the Utah group from using it as part of their official canon. Even though Community of Christ owns the copy right, they now prefer the NRSV be used. Please note that officially the name of the CofC group does NOT include a 'the' in front. By ordinary English usage, this becomes a general denial of exclusivity of sacramental authority or knowledge of the 'true Gospel.'

2. The Jos. Smith Jr. version makes the same claims for itself as 'The Message", that it is the work of one editor, depending on his own personal understanding of the intent of the original author(s). Unlike 'The Message' it was never completed by Smith and was not published during his life time. Serious bible students find many contradictions within and among the NIV, the NRSV, KJV. The Good News Bible is a simplified edition based on the NIV. The Jerusalem Bible is a direct-from-the-modern French into English. Scholars of English editions of the Bible don't like the Jerusalem Bible because (most obviously and among other things as well) for many proper names in the New Testament, the best sources in ancient Greek use feminine forms which were changed to masculine. I leave that as an exercise for the student to determine if it is a significant change.

Me, I really like the Laughing Bird version, which is a sort of take on Peterson's the Message, turned up a couple of notches, by Rev Nettleton, a Methodist minister in Australia.

thank you for indulging me.

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Last edited by Burning Petard on Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Burning Petard »

BSG, when working as an attorney, did you ever use 'the Good News' bible for sworn testimony or depositions?

Today's trivia datum: When he took the oath of office as President of The United States of America, Herbert Hoover did not put his hand on a bible.

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Gob
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Gob »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:23 pm
What he wants is clear in scripture.
That's why there's never been any debate about the meaning of scripture, and all the Christian cults are in total harmony and cohesion. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by BoSoxGal »

Burning Petard wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:37 pm
BSG, when working as an attorney, did you ever use 'the Good News' bible for sworn testimony or depositions?

Today's trivia datum: When he took the oath of office as President of The United States of America, Herbert Hoover did not put his hand on a bible.

snailgate
In Montana witnesses are asked to raise their right hand and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

No Bible (or other religious text) is used. No ‘so help you God,’ is included. Hutterite witnesses do not swear an oath at all, because they don’t believe in swearing unto Caesar, only God.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Gob wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:42 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:23 pm
What he wants is clear in scripture.
That's why there's never been any debate about the meaning of scripture, and all the Christian cults are in total harmony and cohesion. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Like them, you confuse process for purpose. Both wrong, eh? :lol:
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Burning Petard »

Herbert Hoover's objection was simpler: Jesus said 'Don't do it." from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:33-37. It also amazes me about all those good people of Texas at Friday night high school football games, carefully following Jesus' instructions in Matthew 6:5-6 on how to be a hypocrite.

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by BoSoxGal »

I imagine that verse in Matthew is what the Hutterites (Amish of the West) rely on in refusing to swear a public oath in court.

That second verse from Matthew reminds me of the verse just preceding, in which we are cautioned to do our alms in secret, also.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Gob
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Gob »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:41 pm

Like them, you confuse process for purpose. Both wrong, eh? :lol:
No confusion at all, men claim a book written by men is god's word. Its lack of clarity confirms it isn't.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Gob wrote:
Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm
No confusion at all, men claim a book written by men is god's word. Its lack of clarity confirms it isn't.
You're better than that illogical statement. I think it's clear - you don't. Neither opinion makes it so. What's not clear to you? Perhaps I can help?

A few posts back, I recall you commenting that the Bible doesn't tell us what God wants. This seems to be it:

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

I expect the idea of humble doesn't comport but the other bits are probably OK with you. Or do you think he should have given you (or me) 50,000,000 pages on the meaning of "justice"? Would that be enough for you (or me)?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by Gob »

No, you still try and spin a very simple concept. No god worthy of the name would give his children a manual for behaviour as obtuse, stupid, and open to abuse as the bible...

The bible is not god's word as it is borderline gibberish.

Why has your god not given a plain and simple explanation, in a way that cannot be corrupted and abused?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Thousands of Invalid Baptisms Reek Havoc

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Gob wrote:
Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:23 pm
No, you still try and spin a very simple concept. No god worthy of the name would give his children a manual for behaviour as obtuse, stupid, and open to abuse as the bible... The bible is not god's word as it is borderline gibberish. Why has your god not given a plain and simple explanation, in a way that cannot be corrupted and abused?
It is a simple concept. And it's a good question for you to answer: how many words/pages do you require God to write so that every person will know what needs to be done?

If you want to know what God wants, read the Bible. You no doubt disagree with him wanting this or that, but there's always the question of whether you understand it or not. Same for me of course - part of studying the scriptures is to improve understanding. And application. Faith without deeds is somewhat empty.

It's not a manual for behavior. That's a common error. Often leads to unhealthy religious practices. Is it unclear that one should "love your neighbor as yourself"? (Some people have problems keeping that one in the proper context! :lol: but do you blame God for their misbehavior?). A strict Calvinist probably would. . .maybe.

It's hard to discuss vacuous statements such as "borderline gibberish". Do you mean all the words, some of the words, a few words? Actual concrete argument would be helpful.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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