Children are safer in drag queen story hours than in church

[Joe Guy]

Gospel during Mass is the equivalent of a "story hour".

[Scooter]

Children are in the company of church leaders for much more time than just during the gospel. Children would not be in the company of drag queens who do story hour except during story hour.

[Joe Guy]

So maybe the thread should be titled: Children are safer during drag queen story hours than they are when they are alone with pedophiles who are church members.

[Scooter]

No, I'm fine with how I worded it. I'm certain it is borne out statistically.

[Joe Guy]

Okay. Your title is certainly a better way to get an argument ("....above all ARGUE") than my suggestion.

[MajGenl.Meade]

It is well-known that child molestation occurs where "trusted" adults mingle with numerous children. Church/religious environs are sought out by such people, as are athletic teams, schools, universities, hospitals, and so on but they don't seem to arouse righteous indignation. Evidently some people lie about faith as easily they do about other things.

What are you talking about?

I agree with you and especially the last sentence which I didn't quote here. Yes. you are correct. I'm talking about the hypocrites who ignore the fact that abuse goes on in so many places - churches and not jsut churches - wherever

But I don't see the indignation and horror about the things you describe. No. Not in this thread. All I see here is the usual attack on Christians (not by you necessarily) and the total ignoring of the very issues that you (and I) bring up here.

Some people like to vent about religion and don't give a flying damn about the real issues of child abuse and sexual exploitation. There's more than one agenda. And the chorus of sheep join in

[BoSoxGal]

Well then I guess it’s a baaaaaaaad thing when I point out that children are made unsafe in church not just by pedophiles in the clergy or laity, but by the many twisted stories that are told in church to brainwash children into seeing the world a certain way, including seeing themselves as unworthy from a very tender age. Religion is a dangerous brainwashing that really screws a lot of people up very badly, without them having been physically molested they have still been abused by adults by imposing this brainwashing on them.

Everyone should be free of everyone else’s religion, and folks shouldn’t be exposed to or allowed to participate in religion until they’re 21, as we do for all the other problematic, potentially dangerous and life limiting drugs.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Church/religious environs are sought out by such people, as are athletic teams, schools, universities, hospitals, and so on but they don't seem to arouse righteous indignation.

Athletic teams: as BSG pointed out we have seen the Larry Nassar story and he has been sent down for 60 plus 40 to 175 plus 40 to 125 years (numbers per Wikipedia which I have not checked); and then of course Jerry Sandusky at Penn State who is serving 30 to 60 years. I think there may still be a shoe to drop for Gym Jordan but we'll see. So quite a lot of indignation there if years mean anything, whether righteous or not. Schools - we see quite a lot there and who can forget the story of Mary Kay Letourneau (now dead) and of course the older stories of schools to which Native Americans and Canadian First Nation children were sent with horrifying results. Not sure about universities because they tend not to be environments where pederasts thrive. Hospitals - of course we English are familiar with Jimmy Savile who abused his celebrity as an apparent hospital volunteer to gain access to vulnerable women and children.

Churches and religious environs might be particularly sickening - and there are certainly similar stories outside the Christian world - because the very ethic of the operation is that these people are somehow more moral than the rest of us and supposedly teach morality. It may in fact be true of many of them: but just as the police do a terrible job of tossing out the racists and sociopaths from their midst, so too do the religious orders. I am sure that most cops are good people wanting to serve just as are most pastors (and I know a few) but they could do themselves a favor by getting rid of the few but too many assholes among themselves.

[Big RR]

Religion is a dangerous brainwashing that really screws a lot of people up very badly, without them having been physically molested they have still been abused by adults by imposing this brainwashing on them.

I guess it can be, and smetimes is just that. But it is also a way to make people (especially children) aware of others and can foster charity, kindness, even tolerance (at its base, e.g., christianity toells us we are all sinners and, thus, should look to our own sins and not those of others. At its best (and this was the case with the religious education I had, it encourages questioning and understanding, not rote memorization of rules (such as how many childhood subjects are taught in school) and encourages moral development. Sure there are hypocrites, but, generally, it's not because of the religious education they received, it's because they didn't pay attention, or perhaps ignored the lessons. Or maybe it's because they were taught badly (just as many people who don't understand a particular subject were taught badly and carry that ignorance forward).

I think religion can be ennobling and make us better people, I know it has for me, and I do think that early religious education for children can foster that development. FWIW, I believe many parents have screwed up their kids far more than any religions have, and churches can sometimes be a respite from those parents (I've seen it happen many times).

[BoSoxGal]

I’ve seen plenty of selfish inconsiderate and even cruel children who were raised in a heavy church attendance home with all the exposure to programming, and I’ve seen atheist children who are kind and compassionate and generous without ever having the fear of God or hell or any of that crap instilled.

I agree with you that religion can be a good, but in my observation it is more often bad at both the micro and macro levels. I just want to push back strongly on the suggestion that religion is the only or best vehicle by which to raise moral and intellectually curious humans. I think religion is more fraught than good and that human society without religion could be a beautiful thing.

[Big RR]

’ve seen plenty of selfish inconsiderate and even cruel children who were raised in a heavy church attendance home with all the exposure to programming, and I’ve seen atheist children who are kind and compassionate

As have I, and the reverse is also true--I've seen kind and compassionate children raised with religion and inconsiderate/cruel children raised in nonreligious homes. Religion doesn't have the corner on moral behavior.

As for

having the fear of God or hell or any of that crap instilled

, that's not the basis of most religions, at least the chrisitian religions I am aware of. Sure, there are some denominations that use fear as the motivator, but the vast majority teach of a loving god and forgiveness/reconciliation with god. I've heard some fire and brimstone sermons in my time, but most religions don't teach a fear of hell, more an aspiration toward paradise (together with the aspiration to make the world a better place). Indeed, I would bet many people who profess christianity do not believe in the traditional concept of hell i the traditional sense, but believe all will be eventually reconciled with god. They are not judgmental and quick to condemn, but actively work for the betterment of all mankind. Can atheists or agnostics do this as well? Absolutely; but as the buddhists teach, we all find our paths toward enlightenment, and they may well be different from the paths of others. Some may get carried away in promoting their personal path as something to emulate, but while most religious persons will share it with you if requested, they will hardly push it down your throat.

On a broader basis, churches do fulfill other societal needs; many singers will tell you that they got their start in church choirs, and I can recall singing as a young soprano from a very young age (actually 4 or less as I recall). In a time when the arts are being removed from public education more and more, churches carry the teaching of choral singing to children forward. There are many other functions churches perform, from the running of thrift clothing shops to food pantries to serving meals to those needing them. And exposure to this sort of charitable behavior is a good thing for children. Sure, this can be learned in other ways, but this is a benefit of being part of a church.

So no, religion is not the only way to vehicle to raise morally and intellectually curious individuals, but it is, or can be, one way to do so. And even though there are horrendous religious institutions, I think human society is much better off for the influence of religious thought generally.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I would bet many people who profess christianity . . . believe all will be eventually reconciled with god.

So, Jesus is out then eh? Bit silly claiming Christianity and not believing what Jesus taught. Those child molesters have the same problem, theologically speaking.

[FBSGI not mocking hurt children]

[ex-khobar Andy]

I would bet many people who profess christianity . . . believe all will be eventually reconciled with god.

So, Jesus is out then eh? Bit silly claiming Christianity and not believing what Jesus taught. Those child molesters have the same problem, theologically speaking.

I'm not sure what you see as wrong with what Big wrote. After all, it's God who does the sorting and Jesus who intercedes on behalf of the sinner and puts the best possible spin on the story. But it's God's call.

Romans 8:34 (KJV)

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

[BoSoxGal]

Pope Francis said even atheists can go to heaven if they lived right. I’m no angel, but any reasonable Supreme being is going to find me worthy so I’m not sweating my lack of interest in organized religion - pretty sure I’m covered either way.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Pope Francis said even atheists can go to heaven if they lived right . . . any reasonable Supreme being is going to find me worthy

No he didn't. This is about the best analysis I've seen: https://www.ncregister.com/blog/did-pop ... good-works.

Sorry but the eminently reasonable (one and only) Supreme being of Judeo-Christian scriptures is not going to find anyone worthy. Romans 3:10-12,Psalm 14:1-3,Psalm 53:1-3 - summation: No one is worthy, not even one.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I'm not sure what you see as wrong with what Big wrote . . . Romans 8:34 (KJV) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Eugh KJV?

I have no doubt Andy that you indeed are not sure what the Bible says is wrong with what Big RR wrote. I suggest starting with Romans 8:1 before skipping to 8:34. "for us" is about Jesus interceding for believers.

Big RR's suggestion of universal salvation is a popular heresy against the clear words of Scripture and not at all Christian. I agree though with his statement: many who call themselves Christian like to believe that [and thereby disbelieve Jesus].

Salvation itself is offered to all. Many are called but few are chosen (Matt 22:14) to quote Jesus just once.

[Burning Petard]

IF the pope is fairly quoted by BSG and re-quoted by the Gen'l, many Christian traditions disagree. No human lives a life 'good-enuff' to get them to heaven.

And that is irrelevant. All of G-d's creation is good. The usual kiddie catechism phrase is 'saved by Grace, not works. I am only saying this to indicate there are differing views on salvation within Christianity. I am not saying that any particular one is 'true', meaning fully inline with the acts of the Ultimate Cause. But I have never seen anyone able to defend the proposition that 'the clear words of the Scripture' provide a simple answer to any question. The Judeo-Christian scripture is chock full of contradictions.

snailgate.

[MajGenl.Meade]

The Judeo-Christian scripture is chock full of contradictions. snailgate.

And your starter for 10 is: name several of those contradictions and explain how any of them alter the message of Christ

Thank yew

(and the pope is not quoted at all either by me or by BSG. She quoted some newspaper spin. He never once mentioned 'heaven' or salvation. I merely provided a link discussing what he did say)

[BoSoxGal]

Any God that wouldn’t accept with love the good hearted atheist with many good works under her belt is a made up God in the image of nasty judgmental men. Believing in the universe just as it is is far more wondrous and inspiring than any warped angry human imagined god.

[Big RR]

I would bet many people who profess christianity . . . believe all will be eventually reconciled with god.

So, Jesus is out then eh? Bit silly claiming Christianity and not believing what Jesus taught. Those child molesters have the same problem, theologically speaking.

[FBSGI not mocking hurt children]

I'm away for a while and all hell breaks loose. Jesus is out? Why? Who knows what happens later? The bible presents a path to salvation, a path often co-opted and perverted by many denominations calling themselves christians. I believe in the mercy of a just god and the ability of all to come to him--does this really change the teachings of Jesus? Yes he teaches that one can achieve salvation by following him, but he does not put a limit on god's power to take to him/herself those (s)he chooses to bring into communion. Is this a heresy? Well perhaps according to some sola scritura protestants, but I prefer to rely on the love of god rather than his wrath, whether righteous or not. And if I am to be condemned for that belief, I'll be happy to go. And FWIW, despite biblical accounts of it, I absolutely disbelieve the existence of demons and demonic possession as well, so maybe that's enough heresy to condemn me?

ETA: And, FWIW, who says god has to find any worthy of salvation (or whatever you call it)? The christian teachings generally say salvation is a gift, so why can god not accept other unworthy creatures that they too can learn and grow in his presence. Remember the parable about the landowner and those hired for the harvest--if it teaches anything, it teaches that god can accept anyone god chooses to accept--fundamentally, it's god's business, not ours.