This is in response to Gob's observation that this place is boring, a giant echo chamber where each poster is predictable and nobody changes their opinion.
I am not solid on my position about suicide. My 50 year old son killed himself. Nine months later my wife of 57 years died of cancer. Before she died she made me promise to her that I would not kill myself, that I would continue living and find a purpose in my life beyond this separation from her and our son. There is a prominent organization of professionals dedicated to preventing suicide. Their mottos are 'all suicides are preventable" and 'suicide is permanent solution to a temporary problem.'
Is that truly so? Our first family dog at about 16 years old had breast cancer. It was difficult for her to control urination, difficult to walk. She cried out in pain when I lifted her to carry her outdoors to eliminate. We took her to a vet where they ended the bitch's life with an injection. She died in my wife's arms. The Vet, the two assistants were crying through out the process. I vowed I would never require someone else to suffer that way again. I remembered a slogan I picked up from some super-macho literature: A man should kill his own dog. Our second dog died of heart worms because I was too ignorant to know about the existence of such a thing. Our third dog died in the backyard of our home from one 20ga shotgun shell at contact range to the back or her skull. I think she died absolutely peacefully. Our last dog again died in a vet clinic after three days of examination that determined the convulsions and cries of pain were due to brain tumors. That vet would not let me take her home to do the deed myself. I think he was wrong and I do not believe his position was driven by money and what he would bill me for that action. I think rather it was his own philosophical understanding of his own professional duty.
After the death of my son and the death of my wife, I have sought out training as a 'peer mentor' for parents who have lost a child by suicide. Tomorrow I will attend a class about suicide prevention, based on asking three questions and using the questions as leverage to keep the person alive until real professionally trained intervention can be obtained.
Yet we speak of 'death with dignity' for humans. Assisted suicide is not legal in Delaware. "Hospice" was involved in the last three months of my wife's life. She decided to stop all treatment to 'cure' or slow the failure process of her body. Hospice provided morphine in liquid form in amounts that were I think intended to be just short of lethal dose. My wife took very little of it. Her last words in my arms were "it hurts."
Is suicide always wrong? I can be pretty glib with my answer to problems when I don't have to deal with them. Thus I have said I have a hard time imagining circumstances where a person could not end their own life if they really wanted too--they could bite their own tongue and swallow the blood or spit it out until they bled to death.
Most main-stream Jewish and Christian religious organizations no longer advocate that killing one's self results in eternal pain and suffering. It certainly brings great suffering to those living after the suicide -- But is it never the proper action? Why is the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save others a hero, but the policeman who swallows his own gun a coward?
Remember our purpose here: have fun, relax, Argue.
Hey Gob ! ! How do you predict this is gonna go?
snailgate
Is suicide always wrong?
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4083
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Re: Is suicide always wrong?
This is a very important topic with lots of fodder for discussion and debate.
I just wanted to draw a distinction in the terms of art. I think when terminally ill people end their lives by controlled means, especially with medical assistance in places where it is legal, that is not suicide, that is euthanasia.
People who choose euthanasia would desire to continue living in the absence of pain and the underlying illness that is stealing their life from them. In fact, many of the people who avail themselves of medical assistance in dying in states where it is legal don’t actually use the physician prescribed means of death, they allow themselves to die by the disease process. It is a comfort to them to know that the meds are there if the natural dying process becomes too much.
As an interesting aside, some of the research being done currently on psychedelics is being conducted on terminally ill patients who have in many cases enjoyed profound psychological relief from the existential anxiety they suffer in the face of looming death. Perhaps if this becomes a standard of care for those on hospice status in the near future there will be fewer people seeking medical aid in dying.
As to whether suicide is always wrong - well I don’t make a value judgement like that about actual suicide - meaning ending one’s life when the physical body is healthy. To me it is wrong in the same way that cancer is wrong and heart disease is wrong and diabetes is wrong etc. Suicide results from a disease process of the brain so in the respect that absent the disease life should persist then yes, it is always wrong. Our culture considers suicide in a context of lots of ugly value judgments rooted in religion and misunderstanding and fear and ignorance about mental health, so that is where we get dismissiveness of people who die by suicide or declarations about their selfishness and wickedness etc.
Suicide has been a fascination of mine since I first started considering it as an escape from my tormented childhood around aged 10. My first meaningful attempt was age 14. I have made a number of attempts since and am kind of surprised I didn’t end myself in the last couple of years when my decades long refractory depression coupled with serious debilitating chronic physical illness found me in one of my most acute episodes of clinical depression ever. The only thing that kept me from doing it was my concern for the impact it would have on my immediate loved ones including a young niece with whom I reside. I wouldn’t have done it here, but even if you do it somewhere else so they don’t find you, the trauma to loved ones is profound and suicide is highly contagious within families and peer groups where one occurs. I don’t pretend that I’m more concerned with my family than all the people who die by suicide every year, not for a minute would I suggest that. People who die by suicide are not selfish, they are not thoughtless or unconcerned with their loved ones - they are really really sick at that moment and their minds have lied to them so wickedly and effectively that they have an overwhelming impulse they cannot overcome and - finis.
Most people who attempt suicide and survive are grateful to have lived. That doesn’t mean they are cured of the disease that got them there, and it doesn’t mean they won’t become suicidal again. It’s like getting the news the cancer is in remission but knowing it will likely come back and you’ll have to battle it again.
I have serious misgivings about the new trend in countries that allow medical aid in dying - which I support for the terminally ill - of extending that MAID to persons with mental illness because they assert that their lives are unbearable by the pain of their illness and they cannot foresee a future where they would feel different. A few months ago, sometime last year a fairly young woman was euthanized by doctors in Belgium because she had suffered ptsd for several years from witnessing a traumatic terror attack and she felt her ptsd was intractable and incurable. She was late teens or early twenties and I feel strongly that such a use of euthanasia is highly questionable and probably unjustified. I do not have access to her files but understanding the shortcomings of mental health treatment globally even in the developed nations it seems likely she didn’t get enough of the right care in those few short years to justify a declaration that she could never have her ptsd managed well enough to find joy and purpose in life again.
One of the issues implicated here is the fact of our being still in the dark ages of mental health understanding as a wider society, never mind how the field of study and treatment is still in infancy. The very fact that we still so often discuss physical and mental health as though they were separate things and that they are still largely disconnected in medicine is huge and impedes our ability to effectively treat physical conditions which almost certainly always have some roots in the brain. And we know from neuroscience and the magic of fMRI that the brain is more plastic, more capable of healing and responding to treatments even in aging bodies than we ever thought before - we just need to refine the treatments and most importantly get people connected to them.
That said, we live in a profoundly sick society which can be difficult to endure, especially for deep feeling empaths with depressive ruminating tendencies. I don’t judge anyone who reaches the end of their rope but I always wonder if they really were there or if they were experiencing a suicidal impulse that they would gladly have survived if they’d only had the right intervention available to them in that moment. Many people who struggle with suicidal ideation have carefully constructed their lives to preclude ready access to easy means of extinguishing themselves. Many have safety plans established for how they will cope when they become suicidal- sometimes that means dialing a hotline but sometimes it’s reaching out to friends of family and maybe even not letting them know why but because the connection helps the person feel grounded enough that they can override their impulse.
Last year I read a fascinating book called Autopsy of a Suicidal Mind by one of the founders of suicidology, Edwin S. Shneidman. He studied in depth a single case of suicide brought to him by the suicided’s mother who gave the doctor her son’s ten page suicide letter which he used as a starting point and then interviewed family, friends, colleagues, treating therapists and other experts in the field. Anyone who has survived a loved one’s suicide would probably find comfort in the book and certainly some better understanding of what happens to a suicidal person’s thinking and how difficult it is to save them.
Fascinating subject, close to my heart - I have lost friends and colleagues to suicide and while my current excellent treatment is getting me to a place where I believe my depression could be in remission I know I’ll likely face this beast again in my life. I am fascinated by the human brain, the power is has to destroy itself and also to heal itself given the right tools and supports. I would want to know that everyone who suffered suicidal ideation would get those tools and supports before I could endorse euthanasia on psychiatric grounds. From my time in hospice care I know firsthand how at the cellular level the body fights with everything it has to survive - our bodies at that level want to survive in the face of all assaults. In the very elderly it can be painful to watch how the body tries to defy the mind that is ready to go. Our attentions should be on the mind, which has the power to cure us of much that we suffer if only it was treated as it needs.
Long ramble but a complex subject. I will doubtless add more thoughts later. I’m sorry for the loss of your son by suicide, I know how much it hurts to see someone gone before their time by their own hand - or rather by the impulse of a diseased mind. The person we love, when healthy, wouldn’t have done that to themselves or to us. We have to remember that and have compassion for them and for ourselves.
I just wanted to draw a distinction in the terms of art. I think when terminally ill people end their lives by controlled means, especially with medical assistance in places where it is legal, that is not suicide, that is euthanasia.
People who choose euthanasia would desire to continue living in the absence of pain and the underlying illness that is stealing their life from them. In fact, many of the people who avail themselves of medical assistance in dying in states where it is legal don’t actually use the physician prescribed means of death, they allow themselves to die by the disease process. It is a comfort to them to know that the meds are there if the natural dying process becomes too much.
As an interesting aside, some of the research being done currently on psychedelics is being conducted on terminally ill patients who have in many cases enjoyed profound psychological relief from the existential anxiety they suffer in the face of looming death. Perhaps if this becomes a standard of care for those on hospice status in the near future there will be fewer people seeking medical aid in dying.
As to whether suicide is always wrong - well I don’t make a value judgement like that about actual suicide - meaning ending one’s life when the physical body is healthy. To me it is wrong in the same way that cancer is wrong and heart disease is wrong and diabetes is wrong etc. Suicide results from a disease process of the brain so in the respect that absent the disease life should persist then yes, it is always wrong. Our culture considers suicide in a context of lots of ugly value judgments rooted in religion and misunderstanding and fear and ignorance about mental health, so that is where we get dismissiveness of people who die by suicide or declarations about their selfishness and wickedness etc.
Suicide has been a fascination of mine since I first started considering it as an escape from my tormented childhood around aged 10. My first meaningful attempt was age 14. I have made a number of attempts since and am kind of surprised I didn’t end myself in the last couple of years when my decades long refractory depression coupled with serious debilitating chronic physical illness found me in one of my most acute episodes of clinical depression ever. The only thing that kept me from doing it was my concern for the impact it would have on my immediate loved ones including a young niece with whom I reside. I wouldn’t have done it here, but even if you do it somewhere else so they don’t find you, the trauma to loved ones is profound and suicide is highly contagious within families and peer groups where one occurs. I don’t pretend that I’m more concerned with my family than all the people who die by suicide every year, not for a minute would I suggest that. People who die by suicide are not selfish, they are not thoughtless or unconcerned with their loved ones - they are really really sick at that moment and their minds have lied to them so wickedly and effectively that they have an overwhelming impulse they cannot overcome and - finis.
Most people who attempt suicide and survive are grateful to have lived. That doesn’t mean they are cured of the disease that got them there, and it doesn’t mean they won’t become suicidal again. It’s like getting the news the cancer is in remission but knowing it will likely come back and you’ll have to battle it again.
I have serious misgivings about the new trend in countries that allow medical aid in dying - which I support for the terminally ill - of extending that MAID to persons with mental illness because they assert that their lives are unbearable by the pain of their illness and they cannot foresee a future where they would feel different. A few months ago, sometime last year a fairly young woman was euthanized by doctors in Belgium because she had suffered ptsd for several years from witnessing a traumatic terror attack and she felt her ptsd was intractable and incurable. She was late teens or early twenties and I feel strongly that such a use of euthanasia is highly questionable and probably unjustified. I do not have access to her files but understanding the shortcomings of mental health treatment globally even in the developed nations it seems likely she didn’t get enough of the right care in those few short years to justify a declaration that she could never have her ptsd managed well enough to find joy and purpose in life again.
One of the issues implicated here is the fact of our being still in the dark ages of mental health understanding as a wider society, never mind how the field of study and treatment is still in infancy. The very fact that we still so often discuss physical and mental health as though they were separate things and that they are still largely disconnected in medicine is huge and impedes our ability to effectively treat physical conditions which almost certainly always have some roots in the brain. And we know from neuroscience and the magic of fMRI that the brain is more plastic, more capable of healing and responding to treatments even in aging bodies than we ever thought before - we just need to refine the treatments and most importantly get people connected to them.
That said, we live in a profoundly sick society which can be difficult to endure, especially for deep feeling empaths with depressive ruminating tendencies. I don’t judge anyone who reaches the end of their rope but I always wonder if they really were there or if they were experiencing a suicidal impulse that they would gladly have survived if they’d only had the right intervention available to them in that moment. Many people who struggle with suicidal ideation have carefully constructed their lives to preclude ready access to easy means of extinguishing themselves. Many have safety plans established for how they will cope when they become suicidal- sometimes that means dialing a hotline but sometimes it’s reaching out to friends of family and maybe even not letting them know why but because the connection helps the person feel grounded enough that they can override their impulse.
Last year I read a fascinating book called Autopsy of a Suicidal Mind by one of the founders of suicidology, Edwin S. Shneidman. He studied in depth a single case of suicide brought to him by the suicided’s mother who gave the doctor her son’s ten page suicide letter which he used as a starting point and then interviewed family, friends, colleagues, treating therapists and other experts in the field. Anyone who has survived a loved one’s suicide would probably find comfort in the book and certainly some better understanding of what happens to a suicidal person’s thinking and how difficult it is to save them.
Fascinating subject, close to my heart - I have lost friends and colleagues to suicide and while my current excellent treatment is getting me to a place where I believe my depression could be in remission I know I’ll likely face this beast again in my life. I am fascinated by the human brain, the power is has to destroy itself and also to heal itself given the right tools and supports. I would want to know that everyone who suffered suicidal ideation would get those tools and supports before I could endorse euthanasia on psychiatric grounds. From my time in hospice care I know firsthand how at the cellular level the body fights with everything it has to survive - our bodies at that level want to survive in the face of all assaults. In the very elderly it can be painful to watch how the body tries to defy the mind that is ready to go. Our attentions should be on the mind, which has the power to cure us of much that we suffer if only it was treated as it needs.
Long ramble but a complex subject. I will doubtless add more thoughts later. I’m sorry for the loss of your son by suicide, I know how much it hurts to see someone gone before their time by their own hand - or rather by the impulse of a diseased mind. The person we love, when healthy, wouldn’t have done that to themselves or to us. We have to remember that and have compassion for them and for ourselves.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
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ex-khobar Andy
- Posts: 5441
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- Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
As you know, my Susan died in October after about two years of struggle with lung cancer. Mostly it was doable, until it wasn't. About 20 months of treatment was interleaved with maybe 6 weeks of discomfort - nausea, general feeling like shit, and some pain. At that point we decided that the treatment wasn't working - it wasn't, the tumors were slowed but not stopped - so we decided on home hospice. And mostly that was peaceable although tiring. Pain was handled with various opioids up to oral morphine. Susan's mental state deteriorated in the last three months or so and I could not tell how much of that deterioration was due to the cancer itself metastasizing to the brain or how much was due to the pain drugs, or of course to the chemo she had been receiving.
At the same time our two cats were going downhill quickly. They were littermates, 18 years old. They died separately at the vet's a month apart and within two months of Susan's own passing. We went from a household of four to a household of one in three months. It was impossible for me not to wonder why it was that we could not allow the cats to suffer, and as a responsible owner I would take them to the vet for that final injection: and I could not do anything but allow my wife to suffer. I did wonder if I had the courage to relieve her pain if I had to. We have a gun thread going - if I had a weapon available might I have done it? Thankfully I will never know, but I doubt it. I don't think so but none of us know what we might do in extremis.
At the same time our two cats were going downhill quickly. They were littermates, 18 years old. They died separately at the vet's a month apart and within two months of Susan's own passing. We went from a household of four to a household of one in three months. It was impossible for me not to wonder why it was that we could not allow the cats to suffer, and as a responsible owner I would take them to the vet for that final injection: and I could not do anything but allow my wife to suffer. I did wonder if I had the courage to relieve her pain if I had to. We have a gun thread going - if I had a weapon available might I have done it? Thankfully I will never know, but I doubt it. I don't think so but none of us know what we might do in extremis.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
xKA Do you have a new furry friend now? That can be such a comfort.
I feel the same as you about the awfulness of having euthanasia available to our beloved pets but not to our beloved fellow humans - in most of the country, anyway.
I don’t know if I’ve posted this before but my most recent longtime hospice patient just died a few weeks ago. She was 96 and we spent the last year and a half of her life spending a great deal of time together. She was wonderful, reminded me of my beloved grandmother and shared a lot of wisdom during our time I will carry her close to me in the years to come.
It was so hard watching her die at the end - she wanted to go to heaven but her body fought to stay for weeks so it was a hard ending. She had morphine and benzodiazepines but I desperately wished for a phenobarbital cocktail to give her instead. I don’t see the point of making people endure that and I don’t believe any loving God would want it either.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
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Bicycle Bill
- Posts: 9030
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Re: Is suicide always wrong?
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?
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datsunaholic
- Posts: 1820
- Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 am
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Re: Is suicide always wrong?
Bluntly, if it wasn't for the mess I would leave my Mother and siblings, I might not even be here.
Of course, my lack of ambition also means I have no real desire to do anything to cause my own demise. I've lived for the last 9 or so years without a sense of purpose or much of a belief that anything will get better. Maybe a smidge of hope.
The thing is, I still see it as wrong. I grieve for those that took the quick way out. But I see a lot of their reasons. Fortunately even though I don't see much to live for in myself, I still somehow have the hope that someday I'll find the drive to actually want something enough to actually do things again.
Not fun living in my head, that's for sure.
Of course, my lack of ambition also means I have no real desire to do anything to cause my own demise. I've lived for the last 9 or so years without a sense of purpose or much of a belief that anything will get better. Maybe a smidge of hope.
The thing is, I still see it as wrong. I grieve for those that took the quick way out. But I see a lot of their reasons. Fortunately even though I don't see much to live for in myself, I still somehow have the hope that someday I'll find the drive to actually want something enough to actually do things again.
Not fun living in my head, that's for sure.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
My life rocks currently but I understand how quickly things can change. I fully intend to take matters into my own hands if and when I see fit to do so. My body, my choice in all situations.
A former patient of mine flew out west and took the cocktail of drugs and breathed her last. After years of suffering the indignity that is MS she simply had had enough. I completely understand.
Her body, her choice.
A former patient of mine flew out west and took the cocktail of drugs and breathed her last. After years of suffering the indignity that is MS she simply had had enough. I completely understand.
Her body, her choice.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
I agree with @W on the ability to choose, especially when facing imminent death after prolonged suffering.
As for a consideration of mental illness, while I do share BSG's concern that someone with such an illness may not be able to make the choice iwth the proper consideration, I am also very concerned about legislating in this area, as it might not take much for the government to diagnose any of us as mentally ill and strip us of all our rights. Face it, there aren't too many objective criteria which are dispositive, and while "I know it when I see it" may work for pornography, it doesn't work for diagnosing a condition which can result in the forfeiture of most or all of your rights. It's quite easy to manipulate the mental health statutes to achieve anything desired--the Soviets were pretty good at it and I have no doubt any other government could and would do pretty much the same if given the chance. All in all, I believe permitting them to do as they wish, even though that is not a good choice.
As for a consideration of mental illness, while I do share BSG's concern that someone with such an illness may not be able to make the choice iwth the proper consideration, I am also very concerned about legislating in this area, as it might not take much for the government to diagnose any of us as mentally ill and strip us of all our rights. Face it, there aren't too many objective criteria which are dispositive, and while "I know it when I see it" may work for pornography, it doesn't work for diagnosing a condition which can result in the forfeiture of most or all of your rights. It's quite easy to manipulate the mental health statutes to achieve anything desired--the Soviets were pretty good at it and I have no doubt any other government could and would do pretty much the same if given the chance. All in all, I believe permitting them to do as they wish, even though that is not a good choice.
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4083
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
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Re: Is suicide always wrong?
A clarification. "They ended the bitch's life. . . ." The bitch had a name. She was Jenny. ' Bitch' is the proper nomenclature for a female domestic canine. Jenny was the finest, most unselfish person I have ever known in my entire life. She was introduced to me by my wife, whose name is Onalee. Jenny was an excellent judge of human character,; an active contributor to the positive welfare of the family all her life. Based on that experience, I refuse to use the word 'bitch' as anything other than a very high ranking honorific.
snailgate
snailgate
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ex-khobar Andy
- Posts: 5441
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
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Re: Is suicide always wrong?
If humankind persists on this planet beyond another century - which is by no means a given - I suspect that some sort of 'kill them when they are no longer productive' legislation will take place. Life expectancy worldwide has more than doubled in the last 150 years or so. At the moment we think that the oldest person ever was 122 - that French lady about whom there is some doubt. I have every belief that the first person to reach 150 is already living among us - could be that kid down the block you see every day and you will never know. I'm pretty sure Elon Musk wants to live forever. World population forecasts are already so bad, what will happen if we cure cancer and heart disease? If Earth still exists as more than just a piece of dead rock orbiting Sol, it will not be a pretty place 100 years from now.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
The revolution in vaccinology brought about by the recent global pandemic has cancer and heart disease vaccines on the horizons within the next decade according to scientists, other chronic illnesses too, probably diabetes will be cured. Of course some people won’t touch the vaccines but most will, and they will significantly alter the typical yearly mortality and given the plummeting birth rates, earth is gonna get real old, wrinkly, cranky and crowded very soon.
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/04/10/mod ... -2030.html
Back on the subject of where euthanasia/MAID overlaps to facilitating actual suicide - I read a story last summer about two middle aged sisters from Arizona, a palliative care doctor and a hospice nurse, who took a trip to Switzerland and didn’t come home. They’d chosen to euthanize themselves together at one of the Swiss clinics because they were tired of life after suffering typical middle age malaise. I have serious misgivings about that use of medical aid in dying.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 5.html?amp
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/04/10/mod ... -2030.html
Back on the subject of where euthanasia/MAID overlaps to facilitating actual suicide - I read a story last summer about two middle aged sisters from Arizona, a palliative care doctor and a hospice nurse, who took a trip to Switzerland and didn’t come home. They’d chosen to euthanize themselves together at one of the Swiss clinics because they were tired of life after suffering typical middle age malaise. I have serious misgivings about that use of medical aid in dying.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 5.html?amp
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
Anyone who wishes to die should not be stopped. It is their decision and no other. If you truly believe "my body, my choice," any other action is unconscionable.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
I have similar feelings to you about bodily autonomy, however, having suffered refractory depression since my teens I also have a personal awareness of how a diseased brain can make a person think that they want things that they don’t actually want. Have I misremembered that you had personal experience of such depression, too?
I don’t think we should as a matter of public policy encourage facilitating persons acting on mistaken feelings that are a result of mental illness, illness which we can now visualize in real time using fMRI. How is that any different than if we facilitated someone in a psychotic break committing a violent crime? Or if we facilitated someone with a paraphilia engaging in behavior that feeds their paraphilia?
As is often said about suicide, it creates many more victims than just the suicided person. It is not the same thing at all as a death by euthanasia /MAID which ends intractable and incurable suffering. The people left behind in the wake of a suicide are themselves left vulnerable to suicide at much higher rates than the general public and suffer a terrible kind of grief that is hard to come to terms with. Choosing to facilitate suicide for any and all reasons as a matter of public policy is a particular ugly path for a society which has simultaneously chosen to hold onto stigmas about mental illness and to underfund the treatment of mental illness and research into mental illness for decades.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4083
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
- Location: Near Bear, Delaware
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
The problem jaraxle, is in the details. What does 'wishes to die' really mean? Is the situation such that the person has formed an enduring commitment to that choice? If it is appropriate that 'legal infants' cannot form a binding contract, should they or other categories, be allowed to chose to end their life? it is interesting that you use the word 'wish' In my general vocabulary that is a very weak verb of intention or desire. "I wish MGMechanik would post here more frequently.' "I wish politicians were more public-servant-minded" " I wish my socks would stay up better." "I wish I could die" rarely rises to a level of desire and intention that I would expect my wish to be accomplished in the next five minutes. I actually believe that expression "I wish I could die" carries that same description of reality as "I just can't wait 'til. . . " when clearly the person saying that IS going to wait.
So how do you determine when one really wishes to die? To rephrase it, my glib answer is that EVERYONE who really desires to die, is dead. I remember reading about the people BSG cites who made a joint trip to Switzerland because life had become too, (boring, depressing, unsatisfactory?) who knows. The Swiss society has opted for your view. Get out of the way and let them do it.
Can't do that. Wouldn't be prudent. Too many have described changing their mind, deciding they do not want to die, while in the midst of killing themselves. So I do not try to take away the gun of a veteran with a blatant record of severe PTDS from combat. I take little steps. I try to get him to put a simple lock on it with the key in another room so he will have to do more than just pick up the gun. By the way there is a very enlightening book called "The body keeps the score" by an MD Psychiatrist who has done serious research on PTDS, beginning with adults who had been sexually abused by family member(s) when very young, not even out of diapers. His name is Bessel van de Kolk. He expanded his research into military combat trauma and some kinds of very successful treatment in one of those groups work great and was a miserable failure in the other. His book does not say it but I understand it as a very different social/individual trauma. The person sexually abused as a young person was betrayed by an adult who is generally expected to protect the child, Society declares the act an abomination. The combat veteran under went a trauma applauded by society "thank you for your service" you are a hero and the prosthetic leg, permanent brain damage is evidence of just what nice things you did for the rest of us. Makes sense to me that the treatment must be different.
snailgate
So how do you determine when one really wishes to die? To rephrase it, my glib answer is that EVERYONE who really desires to die, is dead. I remember reading about the people BSG cites who made a joint trip to Switzerland because life had become too, (boring, depressing, unsatisfactory?) who knows. The Swiss society has opted for your view. Get out of the way and let them do it.
Can't do that. Wouldn't be prudent. Too many have described changing their mind, deciding they do not want to die, while in the midst of killing themselves. So I do not try to take away the gun of a veteran with a blatant record of severe PTDS from combat. I take little steps. I try to get him to put a simple lock on it with the key in another room so he will have to do more than just pick up the gun. By the way there is a very enlightening book called "The body keeps the score" by an MD Psychiatrist who has done serious research on PTDS, beginning with adults who had been sexually abused by family member(s) when very young, not even out of diapers. His name is Bessel van de Kolk. He expanded his research into military combat trauma and some kinds of very successful treatment in one of those groups work great and was a miserable failure in the other. His book does not say it but I understand it as a very different social/individual trauma. The person sexually abused as a young person was betrayed by an adult who is generally expected to protect the child, Society declares the act an abomination. The combat veteran under went a trauma applauded by society "thank you for your service" you are a hero and the prosthetic leg, permanent brain damage is evidence of just what nice things you did for the rest of us. Makes sense to me that the treatment must be different.
snailgate
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
BP--your point of "Legal infants" raises some interesting issues, but I do have a question--what if someone in his or her right mind (i.e. no mental illness) desires to die; should (s)he be permitted to do so? And should (s0he be able to avail him/herself of medical aid in doing so to be certain it is painless and final? I would respond yes, and, while I agree with BSG that it will cause significant problems for those left behind, I think the balance tips in favor of the person choosing to die. I guess you could say no one in his or her right mind would choose to kill him/herself, but I don't believe that; I can think of many reasons why a person might choose that.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
Never diagnosed, but at a guess, since about age ten. I have no memories of ever being happy, just less-miserable.BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:27 pmI have similar feelings to you about bodily autonomy, however, having suffered refractory depression since my teens I also have a personal awareness of how a diseased brain can make a person think that they want things that they don’t actually want. Have I misremembered that you had personal experience of such depression, too?
The same could be said for many things...offhand, alcoholism, smoking, high-risk hobbies. (I have often wondered how many motorcycle crashes are suicide.) My grandfather deliberately drank himself to death. If he didn't drink, I would put his chance of suicide right at 100%.I don’t think we should as a matter of public policy encourage facilitating persons acting on mistaken feelings that are a result of mental illness, illness which we can now visualize in real time using fMRI. How is that any different than if we facilitated someone in a psychotic break committing a violent crime? Or if we facilitated someone with a paraphilia engaging in behavior that feeds their paraphilia?
As is often said about suicide, it creates many more victims than just the suicided person. It is not the same thing at all as a death by euthanasia /MAID which ends intractable and incurable suffering. The people left behind in the wake of a suicide are themselves left vulnerable to suicide at much higher rates than the general public and suffer a terrible kind of grief that is hard to come to terms with. Choosing to facilitate suicide for any and all reasons as a matter of public policy is a particular ugly path for a society which has simultaneously chosen to hold onto stigmas about mental illness and to underfund the treatment of mental illness and research into mental illness for decades.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
This.Big RR wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:12 amBP--your point of "Legal infants" raises some interesting issues, but I do have a question--what if someone in his or her right mind (i.e. no mental illness) desires to die; should (s)he be permitted to do so? And should (s0he be able to avail him/herself of medical aid in doing so to be certain it is painless and final? I would respond yes, and, while I agree with BSG that it will cause significant problems for those left behind, I think the balance tips in favor of the person choosing to die. I guess you could say no one in his or her right mind would choose to kill him/herself, but I don't believe that; I can think of many reasons why a person might choose that.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
So, you prefer mentally (and often physically) torturing people who make the "wrong" choice, because you are making a moral judgment.Burning Petard wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:40 pmThe problem jaraxle, is in the details. What does 'wishes to die' really mean? Is the situation such that the person has formed an enduring commitment to that choice? If it is appropriate that 'legal infants' cannot form a binding contract, should they or other categories, be allowed to chose to end their life? it is interesting that you use the word 'wish' In my general vocabulary that is a very weak verb of intention or desire. "I wish MGMechanik would post here more frequently.' "I wish politicians were more public-servant-minded" " I wish my socks would stay up better." "I wish I could die" rarely rises to a level of desire and intention that I would expect my wish to be accomplished in the next five minutes. I actually believe that expression "I wish I could die" carries that same description of reality as "I just can't wait 'til. . . " when clearly the person saying that IS going to wait.
So how do you determine when one really wishes to die? To rephrase it, my glib answer is that EVERYONE who really desires to die, is dead. I remember reading about the people BSG cites who made a joint trip to Switzerland because life had become too, (boring, depressing, unsatisfactory?) who knows. The Swiss society has opted for your view. Get out of the way and let them do it.
Can't do that. Wouldn't be prudent. Too many have described changing their mind, deciding they do not want to die, while in the midst of killing themselves. So I do not try to take away the gun of a veteran with a blatant record of severe PTDS from combat. I take little steps. I try to get him to put a simple lock on it with the key in another room so he will have to do more than just pick up the gun. By the way there is a very enlightening book called "The body keeps the score" by an MD Psychiatrist who has done serious research on PTDS, beginning with adults who had been sexually abused by family member(s) when very young, not even out of diapers. His name is Bessel van de Kolk. He expanded his research into military combat trauma and some kinds of very successful treatment in one of those groups work great and was a miserable failure in the other. His book does not say it but I understand it as a very different social/individual trauma. The person sexually abused as a young person was betrayed by an adult who is generally expected to protect the child, Society declares the act an abomination. The combat veteran under went a trauma applauded by society "thank you for your service" you are a hero and the prosthetic leg, permanent brain damage is evidence of just what nice things you did for the rest of us. Makes sense to me that the treatment must be different.
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Burning Petard
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Re: Is suicide always wrong?
I prefer no torture, by society, friends, or one's self. I also try to live by the rule that no absolute, no 'zero tolerance' policy is appropriate. Which of course , leads to my glib observation that all generalities are false, including this one.
I believe that it is a worthy goal to eliminate all pain and suffering. But I also believe that some is necessary to achieve greater goals. I believe it is necessary for parents to kiss and bandage skinned knees of their children. The suffering of the parents as they witness the minor bleeding of their children is a required collateral damage from the valued learning experiences of the child. It is not good to never expose children to circumstance that might result in skinned knees.
The actor learns NOTHING from suicide. For the dead, learning has ended. I do not recommend decapitation as a cure for headaches. As BB states above. their pain is passed on to others. Grief is an unavoidable cost of love.
snailgate.
I believe that it is a worthy goal to eliminate all pain and suffering. But I also believe that some is necessary to achieve greater goals. I believe it is necessary for parents to kiss and bandage skinned knees of their children. The suffering of the parents as they witness the minor bleeding of their children is a required collateral damage from the valued learning experiences of the child. It is not good to never expose children to circumstance that might result in skinned knees.
The actor learns NOTHING from suicide. For the dead, learning has ended. I do not recommend decapitation as a cure for headaches. As BB states above. their pain is passed on to others. Grief is an unavoidable cost of love.
snailgate.
Re: Is suicide always wrong?
I absolutely agree that some people are committing slow motion suicide by the lifestyle choices they engage in because they aren’t concerned with the outcome - a cancer diagnosis would be a welcome exit from their depression. Except, I have worked with people who felt that way until they actually got the diagnosis and suddenly they wanted desperately to live and were able to find joy in the simplest of things. Again, the brain is a wicked organ capable of lying to itself. How fascinating that is, and also how disturbing and terrifying.Jarlaxle wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:18 am
The same could be said for many things...offhand, alcoholism, smoking, high-risk hobbies. (I have often wondered how many motorcycle crashes are suicide.) My grandfather deliberately drank himself to death. If he didn't drink, I would put his chance of suicide right at 100%.
NHTSA assumes that something like 5% of single vehicle crashes in the USA are actually intentional suicides - possibly more, but obviously a very difficult determination to make definitively. People who choose that method are clearly willing to experience terror and possibly agonizing pain in their final moments rather than have their loved ones know they took their lives intentionally. Maybe they have insurance and want to benefit their families in death.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan