Plan B Forum

For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
(Matthew 19:12 ASV)



No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the Lord.
(Deuteronomy 23:2 NAB)

MajGenl.Meade wrote: Since God and truth are not mutually exclusive, whenever there appears to be a conflict eiher truth is not yet understood or God is not yet understood.

Matthew 7:1-2 (King James Version)
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.


1 Corinthians 6:2-4 (New International Version, ©2011)
Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?

Gob wrote:

MajGenl.Meade wrote: Since God and truth are not mutually exclusive, whenever there appears to be a conflict eiher truth is not yet understood or God is not yet understood.

God "not yet understood"? I thought god was infaliable, why can he not get a simple message across?

Matthew 7:1-2 (King James Version)
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.

1 Corinthians 6:2-4 (New International Version, ©2011)
Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?

Gob wrote:Why do we have to rely on someone "in the know" to interprate these things?

I think Jesus has a warmer feeling for those who trust in the same way that children trust - before they learn to be smart-arse nay-sayers - than he may have for someone like me who overthinks the entire thing and must doubt this and that and thrash out an answer.

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. 2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB

Elisha was a prophet of the Northern Kingdom of Israel who was active during the reign of Joram, Jehu, Jehoahaz, and Jehoash (Joash).[2]

Elisha was the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah; he became the attendant and disciple of Elijah (1 Kings 19:16–19), and after Elijah was taken up into the whirlwind, he was accepted as the leader of the sons of the prophets, and became noted in Israel. He possessed, according to his own request, "a double portion" of Elijah's spirit (2 Kings 2:9); and for sixty years (892–832 BC) held the office of "prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8).

His name first occurs in the command given to Elijah to anoint him as his successor (1 Kings 19:16). After learning, in the cave on Mount Horeb, that Elisha, the son of Shaphat, had been selected by God as his successor in the prophetic office, Elijah set out to make known the Divine will. On his way from Sinai to Damascus, Elijah found Elisha "one of them that were ploughing with twelve yoke of oxen". Elisha delayed only long enough to kill the yoke of oxen, whose flesh he boiled with the very wood of his plough. He went over to him, threw his mantle over Elisha's shoulders, and at once adopted him as a son, investing him with the prophetic office. Elisha accepted this call about four years before the death of Israel's King Ahab. For the next seven or eight years Elisha became Elijah's close attendant until Elijah was taken up into heaven. During all these years we hear nothing of Elisha except in connection with the closing scenes of Elijah's life.

After he had shared this farewell repast with his father, mother, and friends, the newly chosen Prophet "followed Elijah and ministered to him". (1 Kings 19:8–21) He went with his master from Gilgal to Bethel, to Jericho, and thence to the eastern side of the Jordan, the waters of which, touched by the mantle, divided, so as to permit both to pass over on dry ground. Elisha then was separated from Elijah by a fiery chariot. He then beheld Elijah taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. By means of the mantle let fall from Elijah, Elisha miraculously recrossed the Jordan, and so won from the prophets at Jericho the recognition that "the spirit of Elijah hath rested upon Elisha" (2 Kings 2:1–15). He won the gratitude of the people of Jericho for healing its barren ground by adding salt to its waters.

When a group of children from Bethel taunted the prophet for his baldness, Elisha cursed them in the name of God and two female bears came out of the forest and mauled 42 of them (2 Kings 2:23–25).

Before Elijah was taken up into the whirlwind, Elisha asked to "inherit a double-portion" of Elijah's spirit. This is indicative of the property inheritance customs of the time, where the oldest son received twice as much of the father's inheritance as each of the younger sons. For example, if a man had three sons, his property was divided into fourths. Each son received one-fourth, with the oldest receiving two-fourths (twice as much as the others). In this instance with Elijah, Elisha is not asking to become twice as powerful as Elijah, but that he may be seen as the "rightful heir" to the work of the Lord that Elijah had done.

Before he settled in Samaria, the Prophet passed some time on Mount Carmel (2 Kings 2:25). When the armies of Judah, Israel and Edom, then allied against Mesha, the Moabite king, were being tortured by drought in the Idumean desert, Elisha consented to intervene. His double prediction regarding relief from drought and victory over the Moabites was fulfilled on the following morning (2 Kings 3:4–24).

Wiki

Elisha is Mocked
(2:23b)

“Young lads.” The KJV has “little children” which really misses the meaning here. These were not children, but young men. The word “lads” is the Hebrew naar and was used of servants, of soldiers and of Isaac when he was 28 years old. This was a crowd of young men, perhaps students of the false prophets, who were here as antagonists to Elisha’s prophetic ministry and authority. If not students, they were sent by the false prophets or idolatrous priests of Bethel to stop Elisha from entering the city. In Elisha Satan had an enemy and he was acting to protect his territory. Remember, however, Elisha was going to Bethel not to curse, but to bless.

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The attack of these young men is twofold:

(1) “Go up”… “go up.” That is, ascend up as you claim Elijah did. The translation of Elijah was a miracle of God and portrayed the biblical truth and hope of the translation of the saints. Though Old Testament saints did not understand this, it was still a type of this truth. Elisha was a prophet of God and by doing this these young men were denying the work of God, denying the Word of God and God’s actions in history.

(2) The second aspect of the attack is seen in the words: “you baldhead.” Whether Elisha was actually bald, or whether he had a different hairstyle, i.e., cropped short on top, they were ridiculing the prophet and telling him to get lost like Elijah. Krummacher writes:

Baldness was regarded by the lower orders as a kind of disgrace; for as it was one of the usual consequences of leprosy, so it was accounted a sign of personal and mental degradation. Hence, in using this opprobrious epithet, the young profligates had a most malicious intention. Their expressions are not to be viewed as a mere burst of youthful wantonness; but as poisoned arrows, pointed and directed by refined and satanic malignity. It is as if they had said, “Thou effeminate leper! Thou would-be prophet! We fear thee not! Go up! Go up!” as if they mean, “Imitate thy master!” . . . It seems to have been a scoffing allusion to the ascent of Elijah; partly sceptical, and partly in derision of Elisha . . . 20


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(2) What Elisha did: Elisha took up his armor, “He cursed them in the name of the Lord.” This is not cursing for cursing or reviling for reviling (1 Pet. 2:23). He was trusting in the Lord and leaving it in God’s hands. The key here is in the word “curse.” It does not mean to swear with vile words. This is the Hebrew word galal meaning “be swift, slight, trifling, or of little account.” The primary meaning is “to be light or slight.” Both verb and noun forms seem to represent a formula which expresses a removal or lowering from the place of blessing.

Cursing stands in contrast to the word blessing or favor (cf. Gen. 27:11, 12). The emphasis is on the absence, reversal, or removal of a blessed state or rightful position which brings God’s protection, provision and blessing. The principle is very simple: without God’s blessed salvation and protection we all stand cursed. The moment God removed His wall of protection from Job, Satan attacked him and wrecked havoc in Job’s life.

So Elisha, as a prophet, saw their hardened and rebellious condition, unresponsive to correction. In the name of the Lord (i.e. by His authority) Elisha simply turned them over to the Lord and to their own devises, which had the effect of removing them from even the common protection of God. He probably said something like, “may God deal with you according to what you deserve,” or “may you be cursed for your sins of rebellion.” This would demonstrate to the city and to people all around a vital truth: without the Lord there is no protection and that blasphemy of God’s servants and His Word in order to hinder God’s message is serious business. Note that Elisha did not call out the bears, God did. Two female bears (not three bears--papa bear, mamma bear, and baby bear) came out and tore up forty-two young men.


Bible.org

Gob wrote:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. 2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB

MajGenl.Meade wrote: I think I’m exhibiting open-mindedness and an accusation of evading the issue (which you would not make anyway but others might) is not borne out by my willing confrontation of alternatives detailed above. On a personal note, I don't mind how the story is interpreted (other than from the presupposition that God doesn't exist) since it makes no difference. The point of the story is the danger and the consequences of holding God up to ridicule (I think). It may be a real incident, partly a real incident or entirely metaphorical (as I suppose the book of Jonah to be) - but that doesn't change the author's purpose. I could be wrong.

Meade

That's where you are getting my positing that the bible is not communicating a message well. If it is the message of an omnipotent being, it shows poor omnipotence.

Cursed them in the name of the Lord"? A far cry from "love thine enemies" or "father forgive them for they know not what they do".

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Gob, I get the message (from any interpretation of the event) as: “it is a very bad idea to anger God because bad consequences will follow”. That’s communicated very well.

Gob wrote: "Anger god", you really believe that a mere mortal is capabale of creating 'anger' in in an omnipotent being? I prefer the "God is such an arse he sends bears to kill kids," explaination, it's just as coherent.

MajGenl.Meade wrote:He possesses (perfectly) all and more of the elements that make you a peson: will, rationality, goodness, love, mercy, grace, morality, creativity etc etc.