What Value Education?

[dgs49]

How can we pretend to place a high value on EDUCATION, when...

We have locked ourselves into a System in which it is impossible to evaluate teachers based on results; more important, despite mountains of evidence supporting it, we are unable to fire a teacher who sucks...and anyone who expresses any concern about this fatal flaw in the Sysem is considered a crank.

We send our children to school for, say, 2/3 of a day, and give them 2-1/2 months off in the Summer. Because 100 years ago, when most of the population lived on farms, it made sense. We dare not even bring up the prospect of 12-month schooling, because the fucking teachers - who already claim to be working "full time" - would demand a 30% increase in their compensation to work 12 month years. Think about that. It is the single biggest factor preventing a rational school schedule.

We waste untold hours and focus on "school" games, sports, and entertaining extracurricular activities which have no logical connection to education. All could be done through neighborhood clubs and social organizations.

We waste untold hours on nonsense like sex education, health & hygiene, study halls and assemblies.

We teach high school boys and girls together, when there is no educational rationale for it, and every study ever done on the subject concludes that both boys and girls do better in mono-sex classrooms.

Half of the subjects being studied in our colleges and universities offer no tangible benefit to either the student or the society at large. In fact, anyone wanting to learn about philosophy, sociology, political science, or history could do so as well with a good reading list as they do sitting in a classroom.

Our colleges have devolved, for at least half the student body, into nothing more than yet another block of time when our teenagers can delay having to assume adult responsibilities, while impoverishing themselves and/or their parents for no good reason. Five years out of college, most grads couldn't name a single valuable thing they got for their six-figure "investment." The value of a degree is deteriorated so much that fast food franchises and retailers can look people in the eye and say they "require" a college education to do their scut work - only because there are so many out-of-work grads who are prepared for NOTHING productive.

More than half of the money spent in most universities has nothing to do with anything that could reasonably be called "education." Slash the budget by 15%? Try fifty percent.

No. We are not serious about Education in the United States of America. Far from it.

[Gob]

I'm glad you clarified that with your last sentence Dave. You see out here in civilisation, we don't see school as a means of producing drones whose sole purpose is to feed the military/industrial complex, far from it. Out here we see school as a means of producing well educated, well rounded, socially skilled, fit individuals.

You shoud have gone into teaching Dave, you're such an expert on what ails your ssyetm, you could have changed it from within, instead of moaning about it from without.

Or would that be too much like actually pulling your thumb out of your arse and actually contributing?

[rubato]

Yet another dm spew where he says that he hates his own species.

Yawn

comment deleted.




yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

You've unwittingly hit on a salient point, strop.

Many qualified people - particularly engineers, accountants, and such - would love to get into teaching (Math & science teachers in the U.S. are woefully unqualified), but the teaching establishments has erected mountainous obstacles, which require, as a minimum, that you take a year off without pay before you can qualify to teach.

Albert Einstein, were he still alive, would not be qualified to teach high school math in the U.S. He would have to take another 30 or 40 credits and student teach for a semester - then he might qualify for an entry level teaching position at 25k.

BTW, I do contribute about $7k/yr to local public education, and have no kids in the school system.

But of course my school district is exemplary.

[Gob]

but the teaching establishments has erected mountainous obstacles, which require, as a minimum, that you take a year off without pay before you can qualify to teach.

How come?

[Crackpot]

I'm not entirely sure that's true at least not at all levels

[oldr_n_wsr]

but the teaching establishments has erected mountainous obstacles, which require, as a minimum, that you take a year off without pay before you can qualify to teach.

How come?

Don't know about taking a year off without pay but here in NY one must have a masters and going toobtain a teaching certificate before being considered. Other states qualifications do vary. In Maryland a teacher only needs a BS degree (don't know about a certificate there).
Not all states are created equal.

[Gob]

BS degree? Bullshit degree?

In the UK, anyone with a full degree can, as I did, do a PGCE (post grad cert of education.) Most self fund these, I was lucky as I was lecturing at the time and the college paid for mine (part time evenings .)

[Sean]

Even those who don't have a degree in the UK can do a PGCE. The route is via C&G and then Cert Ed. That's how I got mine!
Like you Strop, mine was funded by the College where I was teaching and I did it in the evenings.

The problem for those not as lucky as we were is not so much the funding but persuading an institution to let a non-qualified teacher stand in front of a class in order to achieve the requisite teaching hours for the course. IIRC it was 20 hours a fortnight to achieve a Cert Ed.

[oldr_n_wsr]

BS degree? Bullshit degree?

In the UK, anyone with a full degree can, as I did, do a PGCE (post grad cert of education.) Most self fund these, I was lucky as I was lecturing at the time and the college paid for mine (part time evenings .)

BS = Bachelor of Science.
What follows is important as mine was BSEE (Electrical Engineer).
However I do reference as BullShit as there have been plenty of people I have come across who had no degree but could run circles around those that did get their BSxx.

I am a great believer in skills over schooling.

[Gob]

Fair play Sean, I forgot that. Mind you, as you can imagine, my time lecturing was a bit 13th Duke of Wybourne..

"Me, the Gob? Here? In a student-nurses hall of residence? At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation? Has no-one thought of the consequences? Oh well..."

(I was joshing with you O-n-W, one of my degrees was a BS.)

[thestoat]

I've never heard of a BS degree at a university (or poly) in the UK. It has always been BSc for bachelor of science. And I haven't heard of BSEE - oldr, is that American? When I was studying, even 'lec enges (as we called them) were awarded a BSc in electrical engineering, rather than a BSEE. That may well be different these days of course, and I am only talking about the UK system. Not trying to be a pedant - honest. As you were

[thestoat]

[thestoat]

Mind you, it has to be said that the Brits do have the best scientists. In the world. Ever.

[Sean]

Tut tut! They are historians Stoat...


I used to love that sketch.
See that Peter Beardsley...

[thestoat]

Good point Sean, though these days they'd be teaching "historical science" or some such nonsense. Such a good set of sketches though

[Sean]

Nice recovery mate.

[thestoat]

Gotta add this one - one of the best ever I think. (I'll stop now - should really be on the comedy forum)

[Sean]

I'm on it!

[dgs49]

To answer Gob's question, in virtually all states, teachers are required to have a core of 24-30 college-level credits in "teaching," and elated subjects (in addition to the credits by you learn your subject, e.g., chemistry). You are also required to "student-teach" for a semester, and get appropriate recommendations from a supervisory teacher. The process generally takes a year, during which you would be hard-pressed to support yourself as it all takes place during the workday.

I have no quarrel with having post-degree requirements to get into teaching, but these could easily be arranged to happen while a person is gainfully employed. The teaching "profession" does not want this to occur, and thus prevents it through many strategems.

The fact is that teachers with significant math and science credentials are very rare in U.S. public schools. Most who are teaching these quantitative areas have degrees in "education," and only 15-25 credits in the subjects they teach. And the results of American high school science programs reflect this mediocrity.

There are armies of degreed engineers who could do great jobs in the classroom, and would welcome the opportunity to switch careers, if it could be done with a reasonable amount of effort, and they could start at mid-level.

It ain't happening.