Plan B Forum

Posted: **Sat May 28, 2011 12:12 am**

CHRISTIANS in Sydney will have their core beliefs challenged by provocative advertisements due to appear on billboards and buses in the next month.

The ads, paid for by an Islamic group called MyPeace, will carry slogans such as ''Jesus: a prophet of Islam'', ''Holy Quran: the final testament'' and ''Muhammad: mercy to mankind''.

A phone number urges people to call to receive a free Koran and other Islamic literature.

The organiser of MyPeace, Diaa Mohamed, said the campaign was intended to educate non-Muslims about Islam. He said Jesus was a prophet of Islam, who was to come before Muhammad. ''The only difference is we say he was a prophet of God, and they say he is God,'' Mr Mohamed said. ''Is it thought-provoking? Yes, it is. We want to raise awareness that Islam believes in Jesus Christ,'' he said.

Mr Mohamed said he hoped the billboards would encourage Christians and Muslims to find common ground. They were not intended to downgrade the significance of Jesus. ''We embrace him and say that he was one of the mightiest prophets of God.''

MyPeace plans to extend the campaign, funded by private donations, to television.

The Anglican Bishop of South Sydney, Rob Forsyth, said it was ''complete nonsense'' to say Jesus was a prophet of Islam. ''Jesus was not the prophet of a religion that came into being 600 years later.''

But the billboard was not offensive, he said. ''They've got a perfect right to say it, and I would defend their right to say it [but] … you couldn't run a Christian billboard in Saudi Arabia.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/hes-not- ... z1NbLLkmFu

Posted: **Sun May 29, 2011 11:46 pm**

Not everyone is a fan then..

A PROVOCATIVE billboard carrying the slogan ''Jesus: a prophet of Islam'' has been vandalised one day after it was posted on one of Sydney's busiest roads.

The billboard is one of three paid for by an Islamic group called MyPeace and features a phone number for people to call to receive a free Koran and other Islamic literature.

The organiser of MyPeace, Diaa Mohamed, said the vandalism of the billboard at Victoria Road, Rozelle, ''validates the reason they went up in the first place''.

Since the billboards were erected in Darlinghurst, Rozelle and Rosehill on Thursday and Friday, and featured in the Herald on Saturday, Mr Mohamed said he had been inundated with phone calls and emails.

''I've had overwhelmingly positive feedback from Christians, atheists, Muslims, everyday Australians, saying, 'we support you and keep up the good work','' Mr Mohamed said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/jesus-billboa ... z1Nmw3rlcS

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 1:45 am**

The interesting question is "who" is not a "fan"....

I could see where some fundamentalist Christians might be offended at having Jesus associated with Islam; I could also see where some Muslims would find it offensive.

Both would be reacting out of ignorance however; since the Koran makes quite clear that Mohamed considered Jesus to be a prophet; (Moses too, btw...Moses in fact is mentioned more frequently in the Koran than any other prophet) and therefore the sign is accurate.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 1:50 am**

Most likely to be mindless anti-Islam/muslim thugs..

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 2:15 am**

Well, I have no idea how many Muslims there are in Australia, but it seems to me just as likely that it could be a Muslim ignoramus who finds any association between Islam and Christianity offensive.

The idiots on both sides deserve each other, as far as I'm concerned.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 2:23 am**

BTW, this comment by whoever wrote the article is pretty ignorant too:

CHRISTIANS in Sydney will have their core beliefs challenged by provocative advertisements due to appear on billboards and buses in the next month.

How does the historical fact that Mohamed considered Jesus to be a prophet, (and his writings in the Koran reflect this) "challenge the core beliefs of Christians"? How does what another faith believe even have anything to do with those core beliefs? (ie the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ)? Many Jews consider Jesus to be a "great teacher"; does that challenge "the core beliefs of Christians"? Of course not.

The guy who wrote that is either ignorant of what Christianity is about, (it's "core beliefs" are not dependent on what anyone in any other faith believes) or he is the one who is trying to be "provocative" by playing to the ignorance of others. (Or possibly both. )

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 3:15 am**

Come on Jim, are you claiming that there aren't Christians who see Jesus as being exclusively "theirs" and wouldn't be offended by the notion that he plays a significant role in Islam?

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 3:25 am**

Come on Jim, are you claiming that there aren't Christians who see Jesus as being exclusively "theirs" and wouldn't be offended by the notion that he plays a significant role in Islam?

Well, no Scooter, I'm not claiming that, and I'm a little puzzled by the question, given that I said this:

I could see where some fundamentalist Christians might be offended at having Jesus associated with Islam; I could also see where some Muslims would find it offensive.

Both would be reacting out of ignorance however; since the Koran makes quite clear that Mohamed considered Jesus to be a prophet;

And this:

The idiots on both sides deserve each other, as far as I'm concerned.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 3:31 am**

Then why do you have a problem with the notion that it would "challenge the core beliefs" of Christians? For those Christians who see Jesus as exclusively "theirs", it would challenge their core beliefs to hear that he plays a significant role in another religion.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 3:41 am**

Then why do you have a problem with the notion that it would "challenge the core beliefs" of Christians?

Well, uhh, maybe because it doesn't challenge the core beliefs of Christianity?

The core beliefs of Christianity are, (as I pointed out) the divinity of Jesus Christ and the truth of Resurrection....

"No one but Christians have a right to have an opinion about the significance of Jesus" is not in any way a "core belief" of Christianity.

Anyone, (Christian or non-Christian) who believes that is a "core belief of Christianity" is clearly ignorant or horribly misinformed about the nature of Christianity and it's "core beliefs" I'm certainly no theologian, but I know that much.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 4:07 am**

Lord Jim wrote:Well, uhh, maybe because it doesn't challenge the core beliefs of Christianity?

It doesn't challenge YOUR core beliefs about Christianity, perhaps. For those who believe that Jesus came to save only those who profess the Christian faith, the notion that Jesus plays any role in salavation through another faith most certainly challenges their core beliefs, since those people don't believe that non-Christians can be saved.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 4:21 am**

Considering someone to be a "prophet" does not mean that you are claiming that you can achieve eternal salvation through faith in that person.

If there are Christians who think it does mean that, then again, the problem is ignorance about what the core beliefs of Christianity are, not the the core beliefs of Christianity... (and also ignorance about the meaning of the word "prophet" if they think that word means the same thing as "savior")

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 4:56 am**

I said "the notion that Jesus plays any role in salvation through another faith..." Prophets certainly play a role in salvation in Christian theology, otherwise about a third of the bible would never have made it into the Christian canon. And yes, the notion that Jesus can play any role: prophetic, messianic, or whatever, in salvation for those of other faiths most certainly challenges the core beliefs of those Christians who believe Jesus came only to save them, not Jews, not Muslims, not Buddhists, not Hindus, nor anyone else who subscribes to any of his teachings in any measure.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 5:06 pm**

How so?

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 6:15 pm**

Prophets certainly play a role in salvation in Christian theology, otherwise about a third of the bible would never have made it into the Christian canon.

They play a role, but I don't believe I'd call it a role in "salvation"....

Moses and John the Baptist, to name two are considered "prophets" in the Christian faith, but they are not considered divine, (divinely inspired, but not themselves divine) and one does not achieve "salvation" through them...

That role is uniquely assigned to Jesus Christ, who in Christianity, is much much more than just a "prophet"...

Jesus came only to save them, not Jews, not Muslims, not Buddhists, not Hindus, nor anyone else

And I'll repeat once again that Jesus does not in anyway play the role of savior in the Muslim faith, so no one who has a proper understanding of the "core beliefs" of Christianity, the nature of the role Jesus holds in the Muslim faith, and the meaning of the word "prophet" (as opposed to "savior") could possibly believe that "the core beliefs of Christianity" are "challenged" by the fact that the Koran considers Jesus to be a prophet.

This does not of course mean (again as I pointed out before) that there aren't people who are ignorant enough to falsely believe that this somehow "challenges" the core beliefs of Christianity; of course there are.

I believe we're starting to go in circles here....

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 6:26 pm**

We are indeed, because you keep shifting away from what I am saying to find a way around it.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 6:32 pm**

No, it's because you keep starting out with a limited claim like "playing any role" and stretching and morphing it into "came to save only them", which are two completely different things. You start out indicating that you see the difference between "prophet" and "savior" and then by the end of your comments you try to use them interchangeably...

We're going around in circles because I keep having to de-construct your rhetorical gymnastics in order to return to the central points.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 6:35 pm**

You're right, Jim. There isn't a Christian in the world who would have any objection to that sign or to the notion of Jesus as a prophet of Islam. No doubt it was a group of Wiccans who were upset enough to try to tear it down.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 7:28 pm**

There isn't a Christian in the world who would have any objection to that sign or to the notion of Jesus as a prophet of Islam.

LOL

Okay, now I think I see the problem...

You just haven't been reading my posts...

Sure there are Christians "in the world who would have any objection to that sign or to the notion of Jesus as a prophet of Islam."

And there are no doubt plenty of Muslims who feel that way too....

And there are probably also Christians, (and Muslims) who object to the fact that kids believe in the tooth fairy....

But if they think that the fact that the Koran considers Jesus to be a prophet somehow "challenges the core beliefs of Christianity" they are just plain wrong...Period. They may be ignorant or misinformed enough to think it does, but people believe all sorts of things that are wrong. (A brief spin around this board is all it takes to prove the efficacy of that assertion

)

Geez, what is this , the third or the fourth time that I've made crystal clear in completely straight forward and unambiguous terms that I DO NOT believe:

"There isn't a Christian in the world who would have any objection to that sign or to the notion of Jesus as a prophet of Islam."

I've made that clear so many times in this discussion I've lost track....

Will you finally notice what I've been saying this time, or will we be treated to that strawman yet again?

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 7:58 pm**

Lord Jim wrote:[But if they think that the fact that the Koran considers Jesus to be a prophet somehow "challenges the core beliefs of Christianity" ...

Now who is inventing the strawman?

Nowhere in that article does it say that the billboard "challenges the core beliefs of Christianity" (by which, in the narrow way you seem to have defined it, I am assuming you mean fundamental beliefs that are shared by ALL Christians).

It says, "Christians...will have their core beliefs challenged" - a very different statement from the above.

Regardless of whether they are right or wrong in whether they are core beliefs to Christianity as a whole, there are nevertheless Christians who hold those beliefs and for whom they are core beliefs personally, and often also of the particular Christian sects to which they adhere.

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