The God Who Wasn't There

[BoSoxGal]

Excellent documentary by former evangelical Christian:

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

[loCAtek]

OK, haven't seen it but, it might as well say;

Bowling for Columbine did it to the gun culture.

Super Size Me did it to fast food.

'Now The God Who Wasn't There does it to [dogma],

...there are other religions.

And I guess it doesn't do it to spirituality?

Good, the dogma isn't the point anyway.

[Sean]

Actually the word used was 'religion' and not 'dogma'. Why would you change that in a quote?

[loCAtek]

That's what brackets are for.

I announced my change of quote with, "it might as well say..."

meaning I was not directly quoting.

[Sean]

Why not quote as written and allow the reader to decide for themselves?

[loCAtek]

Um, this is a debate forum ...I thought?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is an exchange of ideas, rather than a hierarchy of ideas?

...or wait, was that the CSB?

[Sean]

Exactly. All the more reason to allow people to make up their own minds. What's wrong with using the word 'religion' in the quote and then following up with your view/opinion?

Don't you think others should be entitled to their own views and interpretations?

[loCAtek]

Well, let me explain, my comment wasn't pure opinion; as the quote above wasn't pure fact.

She used 'religion' in an over-generalized way. The movie, it appears is analyzing Christianity's roots, which is just one of the world's religions. Also, she appears to be analyzing Fundamentalist Christianity, which is just one of the Christian faiths. She was once an Evangelist, which is a form of Fundamentalist Christianity that is pretty dogmatic What she describes sounds like she's studied the dogmatic aspects of one form (her's) of Christianity, and not spiritual religion.

[Sean]

Please do.

ETA: Sorry, obviously my slow connection... When I posted all your post said was "well let me explain"...

[loCAtek]

This appears to be another case of the false choice of 'religion is Dogma or nothing'.




Sorry, hit submit accidentally... and I'm gonna go back and correct spelling now.

[loCAtek]

From the link;

The Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults

Joseph Campbell said a similar thing in support of spirituality;

...


That's very interesting it sounds a bit like the 'Hero Journey' as described by Joseph Campbell*, of which Jesus Christ fits the mythos;

The Hero with a Thousand Faces
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The Hero with a Thousand Faces

The Hero with a Thousand Faces (first published in 1949) is a non-fiction book, and seminal work of comparative mythology by Joseph Campbell. In this publication, Campbell discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies.

Since publication of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell's theory has been consciously applied by a wide variety of modern writers and artists. The best known is perhaps George Lucas, who has acknowledged a debt to Campbell regarding the stories of the Star Wars films.[1]



[edit] Summary

Campbell explores the theory that important myths from around the world which have survived for thousands of years all share a fundamental structure, which Campbell called the monomyth. In a well-known quote from the introduction to The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell summarized the monomyth:
“ A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.[2] ”

In laying out the monomyth, Campbell describes a number of stages or steps along this journey. The hero starts in the ordinary world, and receives a call to enter an unusual world of strange powers and events (a call to adventure). If the hero accepts the call to enter this strange world, the hero must face tasks and trials (a road of trials), and may have to face these trials alone, or may have assistance. At its most intense, the hero must survive a severe challenge, often with help earned along the journey. If the hero survives, the hero may achieve a great gift (the goal or "boon"), which often results in the discovery of important self-knowledge. The hero must then decide whether to return with this boon (the return to the ordinary world), often facing challenges on the return journey. If the hero is successful in returning, the boon or gift may be used to improve the world (the application of the boon).

Very few myths contain all of these stages—some myths contain many of the stages, while others contain only a few; some myths may have as a focus only one of the stages, while other myths may deal with the stages in a somewhat different order. These stages may be organized in a number of ways, including division into three sections: Departure (sometimes called Separation), Initiation and Return. "Departure" deals with the hero venturing forth on the quest, "Initiation" deals with the hero's various adventures along the way, and "Return" deals with the hero's return home with knowledge and powers acquired on the journey.

The classic examples of the monomyth relied upon by Campbell and other scholars include the stories of Osiris, Prometheus, the Buddha, Moses, and Christ, although Campbell cites many other classic myths from many cultures which rely upon this basic structure.

While Campbell offers a discussion of the hero's journey by using the Freudian concepts popular in the 1940s and 1950s, the monomythic structure is not tied to these concepts. Similarly, Campbell uses a mixture of Jungian archetypes, unconscious forces, and Arnold van Gennep's structuring of rites of passage rituals to provide some illumination.[3] However, this pattern of the hero's journey influences artists and intellectuals worldwide, suggesting a basic usefulness for Campbell's insights not tied to academic categories and mid-20th century forms of analysis.

Wiki

*Joseph Campbell


Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 30, 1987) was an American mythologist, writer and lecturer, best known for his work in comparative mythology and comparative religion. His work is vast, covering many aspects of the human experience. His philosophy is often summarized by his phrase: "Follow your bliss."[1]

Campbell's ideas regarding myth and its relation to the human psyche are dependent in part on the pioneering work of Sigmund Freud, but in particular on the work of Carl Jung, whose studies of human psychology, as previously mentioned, greatly influenced Campbell. Campbell's conception of myth is closely related to the Jungian method of dream interpretation, which is heavily reliant on symbolic interpretation.

...

Comparative religion and Campbell's theories
[edit] Monomyth
Main article: Monomyth

Campbell's term monomyth, also referred to as the hero's journey, refers to a basic pattern found in many narratives from around the world. This widely distributed pattern was first fully described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[19] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[20] Campbell borrowed the term from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[21] As a strong believer in the unity of human consciousness and its poetic expression through mythology, through the monomyth concept, Campbell expressed the idea that the whole of the human race could be seen as reciting a single story of great spiritual importance and in the preface to The Hero with a Thousand Faces he indicated it was his goal to demonstrate similarities between Eastern and Western religions. As time evolves, this story gets broken down into local forms, taking on different guises (masks) depending on the necessities and social structure of the culture that interprets it. Its ultimate meaning relates to humanity's search for the same basic, unknown force from which everything came, within which everything currently exists, and into which everything will return and is considered to be “unknowable” because it existed before words and knowledge. The Story's form however has a known structure, which can be classified into the various stages of a hero's adventures like the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meet with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. As the ultimate truth cannot be expressed in plain words, spiritual rituals and stories refer to it through the use of "metaphors", a term Campbell used heavily and insisted on its proper meaning: In contrast with comparisons which use the word like, metaphors pretend to a literal interpretation of what they are referring to, as in the sentence "Jesus is the Son of God" rather than "the relationship of man to God is like that of a son to a father".[22] According to Campbell, the Genesis myth from the Bible, ought not be taken as a literal description of historical events happening in our current understanding of time and space, but as a metaphor for the rise of man's cognitive consciousness as it evolved from a prior animal state[23]..

Campbell made heavy use of Carl Jung's theories on the structure of the human psyche and he used terms like Anima/Animus and Ego Consciousness, often. That is not to say that he necessarily agreed with Jung upon every issue, and had very definite ideas of his own. He did believe however, as he clearly stated in the Power of Myth, in a specific structure that exists in the Psyche and is somehow reflected into myths.
[edit] Function of Myth

Campbell often described mythology as having a four fold function for human society. These appear at the end of his work The Masks of God, in the volume Creative Mythology, as well as various lactures.[24]

* Awakening a Sense of Awe before the Mystery of Being

According to Campbell, the absolute mysteries of life cannot be captured in words. In that sense no real meaning can be assigned to either life or to the mythic images which try to capture it. Myths are "being statements"[24] and the experience of this mystery can be had only through a participation in mythic rituals.

* The Cosmological Function

Myth also functioned, in its day, as a proto-science, drawing conclusions about the physical world through common observations. Campbell noticed that the old dilemma between science and religion on matters of truth is actually between science of the ancient world and that of today.

* Validate and Support the Existing Social Order

Ancient societies had to conform to an existing social order if they were to survive at all. This is because they evolved under "pressure" from necessities much more intense than the ones encountered in our modern world. Mythology confirmed that order and enforced it by reflecting it into the stories themselves, often describing how the order arrived from divine intervention.

* Guide the Individual through the Stages of Life

As a person goes through life, many psychological challenges will be encountered. Myth may serve as a guide for successful passage through the stages of one's life. For example, most ancient cultures used rites of passage as a youth passed to the adult stage. Later on, a living mythology taught the same person to let go of material possessions and earthly plans as they prepared to die.

Campbell believed that if myths are to continue to fulfill their vital functions in our modern world, they must continually transform and evolve because the older mythologies, untransformed, simply do not address the realities of contemporary life.

There was a fabulous miniseries aired on PBS, that interviewed Campbell and summaries his books called:

The Power of Myth
Main article: The Power of Myth

Campbell's widest popular recognition followed his collaboration with Bill Moyers on the PBS series The Power of Myth, which was first broadcast in 1988, the year following Campbell's death. The series exposed his ideas concerning mythological, religious, and psychological archetypes to a wide audience, and captured the imagination of millions of viewers. It remains a staple of PBS television membership drives to this day. A companion book, The Power of Myth, containing expanded transcripts of their conversations, was released shortly after the original broadcast and became a best-seller.

A whole episode;

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/S3h-MtWWeNk/

[Sean]

Well, let me explain, mine comment wasn't pure opinion; as the quote above wasn't pure fact.

She used 'religion' in an over-generalized way. The movie, it appears is analyzing Christianity's roots, which is just one of the world's religions. Also, she appears to be analyzing Fundamentalist Christianity, which is just one of the Christian faiths. She was once an Evangelist, which is a form of Fundamentalist Christianity that is pretty. dogmatic What she describes sounds like she's studied the dogmatic aspects of one form of Christianity, and not spiritual religion.

Religion is a very general term. It can't be over-generalised. The movie is obviously aimed at discrediting Christianity but the word 'religion' is used in the tagline instead of 'Christianity' just as 'fast food' is used instead of 'McDonalds'. I think you're reading too much into that.

Do I assume from your analysis that you've watched it now?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that he is analysing Fundamentalists (who he describes in the blurb as "alarming"). I haven't seen the movie but from what I've read he is investigating the evidence for Jesus' existence. That to me seems to cover all aspects of Christianity fairly well as no aspect of Christianity, whether dogmatic or spiritual, would remain if Jesus were taken out of the equation.

[loCAtek]

I watched the link to the trailer; which is on the page. In the short trailer, the director immediately shows clips of famous Evangelical preachers like Pat Robertson, who are known for their dogma.

In the long trailer, which I found in looking for the movie (found it, have to watch it later.) he adds cult leaders like Manson and the Branch Davidians, still more dogmatists.



As this reviewer put it, "What does that have to do with whether Jesus historically existed?'

[Sean]

Personally I would not attempt to give my opinion of any movie from just the trailer(s). I've seen shit trailers for great movies and vice versa. Trailers have one purpose: to grab the viewers attention and persuade them to watch the entire movie. For this reason, I would suggest, he used famous and controversial figures such as Robertson, Manson and Koresh.

I would advise reserving judgement until you have watched the entire movie but then again, you've obviously made up your mind about it already so your view will be extremely blinkered. I'll say it anyway... try to watch it with an open mind.

[loCAtek]

Very well sean, have you seen it? How well do you think he supported his case?

[loCAtek]

I did find this clip which said to be most compelling (circumstantial) evidence.




What I first noticed was that the director equates the birth of Jesus with 1 AD. The facts are Anno Domino wasn't used until 525 and not use widely until 800; the year one was just roughly estimated for centuries. The year of Jesus' birth could be off by decades and so then is this timeline.

Then there that claim, that they can't find a record of a man named Jesus. That's semi-factual, Jesus was not know as such, but went by the name Immanuel.

Also as my BF puts it- he was a bum LOL, a homeless person who wandered, why any city keep a list of their bums back then?

[BoSoxGal]

Who is 'she'?

I ask because I just watched the documentary, which was made by a male, based on his experiences as a Christian evangelical.

[Sean]

I have clearly stated Lo that I haven't seen the movie which is why is will not be offering an analysis until I do so.

[@meric@nwom@n]

It appears to be on youtube.

This is the first part:

[loCAtek]

At first I thouht the director was a woman. I'm not at home, but I'll watch it when I get back.