Plan B Forum

During Greco-Roman times the spring equinox was in Aries which it had entered in approximatel 2000 B.C.E., before that it was in Taurus. Now with the exception of Leo, all the constellations within Mithraic iconography lie on the celestial equator, where it would have been seen when the spring equinox was in Taurus. Leo marks the sun's location at the summer solstice during the same period.

Thus the iconography of the cult, particularly the bull slaying or tauroctony, matches the astronomical situation that prevailed 2000 years before the origins of Mithraism. The progression of the equinoxes was not unknown in ancient times, it was discovered in 125 B.C.E. by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus, only a few decades before the initial rise of Mithraism. Hipparchus not only showed the progression of the equinoxes, he also calculated the constellations that that would have lain along the celestial equator when the equinox was in Taurus, the most recent position before the Greco-Roman period. It is interesting that during the period 4000 - 2000 B.C.E. bull cults were popular in the Mediterranean basis and the Near East. From a geocentric perspective, the progression (a movement of the earth) appears to be the movement of the entire cosmic sphere. For people with a geocentric worldview and a belief that the movements of the stars influenced human fates, the discovery of the progression would have been literally world-shaking; the stable sphere of the fixed stars being unseated by some some force apparently larger than the cosmos itself. Ancient intellectuals, accustomed as they were to seeing the works of nature, could easily have taken the great movement as evidence for the existence of a powerful, hitherto unsuspected deity.

Ulansay's speculation continues that by the act of the tauroctony becomes clear; the death of the bull aptly symbolised the end of Taurus as the constellation of the spring equinox and the beginning of the most recent era. The other figures in the tauroctomy all represent constellations whose special position in the sky was also ended by the force of the progression.

By killing the bull - causing the progression of the equinoxes - Mithras was in effect causing the entire universe. A God capable of performing such a tremendous deed would be eminently deserving of worship. Furthermore, the ability to move the cosmos would be seen as endowing Mithras with other powers as well, such as the ability to overcome the forces of fate residing in the stars and to guarantee the soul passage through the planetary spheres after death. Mithras was thus the God of the "New Age", we who live two thousand years after the cult of Mithras was born see the progression of the equinoxes continuing from the constellation of Pisces to that of Aquarius.


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loCAtek wrote:There are those who claim that Christianity stole from the Mithraic mysteries, the birthday of their savior- December 25th.

loCAtek wrote:Mithraic followers did not believe that their idol was a real person; they understood his visage to be symbolic

An alternative explanation has been suggested. The name given by the Frankish church to Jesus' resurrection festival included the Latin word "alba" which means "white." (This was a reference to the white robes that were worn during the festival.) "Alba" also has a second meaning: "sunrise." When the name of the festival was translated into German, the "sunrise" meaning was selected in error. This became "ostern" in German. Ostern has been proposed as the origin of the word "Easter"

thestoat wrote:
Wow - did you speak to them about this? So you are saying that all the old myths (Dionysos, Osiris, Achilles, Thor, etc etc) were symbols and people didn't believe they had been people on earth? Or just Mithras? If he was just believed to be a symbol, how do you explain the many stories about his birth and death? I could go on but I don't want to confuse

loCAtek wrote:Not exactly nicked, for the problem was: few people outside of Jesus' family knew when his birthday was

loCAtek wrote:Not exactly nicked, for the problem was: few people outside of Jesus' family knew when his birthday was.

Sean wrote:Absolute horseshit!

thestoat wrote:

loCAtek wrote:Not exactly nicked, for the problem was: few people outside of Jesus' family knew when his birthday was

Yes, exactly nicked. Of the 365 days in the year - why choose that one? So many to chose from, yet Dec 25th is chosen, which is completely and utterly wrong. Even I know the bible suggests some of a summer time birth. That date was not randomly chosen - it was nicked from pagan festivals.

In 1889, Louis Duchesne suggested that the date of Christmas was calculated as nine months after Annunciation, the traditional date of the conception of Jesus.[19]

The December 25 date may have been selected by the church in Rome in the early 4th century. At this time, a church calendar was created and other holidays were also placed on solar dates: "It is cosmic symbolism...which inspired the Church leadership in Rome to elect the winter solstice, December 25, as the birthday of Christ, and the summer solstice as that of John the Baptist, supplemented by the equinoxes as their respective dates of conception. While they were aware that pagans called this day the 'birthday' of Sol Invictus, this did not concern them and it did not play any role in their choice of date for Christmas," according to modern scholar S.E. Hijmans.[20]

thestoat wrote:
And since you mention Easter, do you plan to dispute that lots of religions have their gods dying and then rising from the dead? Quite a few are mentioned here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:L ... birth_gods

thestoat wrote:
And I need to re-ask the questions since unfortunately I don't understand if you answered them ...

So you are saying that all the old myths (Dionysos, Osiris, Achilles, Thor, etc etc) were symbols and people didn't believe they had been people on earth?

thestoat wrote: Or just Mithras? If he was just believed to be a symbol, how do you explain the many stories about his birth and death?

Merkelbach suggests that its mysteries were essentially created by a particular person or persons[165] and created in a specific place, the city of Rome, by someone from an eastern province or border state who knew the Iranian myths in detail,

thestoat wrote:
Edited to add: Lo - in the very text you quote it states "We do know that amongst the teachings of cult: Mithras was born of a virgin, in a cave on 25th December, and after the miraculous birth he was visited by various distingished visitors who paid homage to the divine child", which appears to refute everything your post stated?

Much about the cult of Mithras is only known from reliefs and sculptures. There have been many attempts to interpret this material.

Mithras-worship in the Roman Empire was characterized by images of the god slaughtering a bull. Other images of Mithras are found in the Roman temples, for instance Mithras banqueting with Sol, and depictions of the birth of Mithras from a rock. But the image of bull-slaying (tauroctony) is always in the central niche.[27] Textual sources for a reconstruction of the theology behind this iconography are very rare.[28]

Mithras is depicted as being born from a rock. He is shown as emerging from a rock, already in his youth, with a dagger in one hand and a torch in the other. He is nude, is wearing a Phrygian cap and is holding his legs together.[43]



Numerous archeological finds, including meeting places, monuments, and artifacts, have contributed to modern knowledge about Mithraism throughout the Roman Empire.[7] The iconic scenes of Mithras show him being born from a rock, slaughtering a bull, and sharing a banquet with the god Sol (the Sun). About 420 sites have yielded materials related to the cult. Among the items found are about 1000 inscriptions, 700 examples of the bull-killing scene (tauroctony), and about 400 other monuments

[No mention, or depiction of birth from virgin]

Mithras is depicted as being born from a rock. He is shown as emerging from a rock, already in his youth, with a dagger in one hand and a torch in the other. He is nude, is wearing a Phrygian cap and is holding his legs together.

loCAtek wrote:You mean the Winter solstice? ...the one that takes place on different day every year? It wasn't the pagans but Julius Caesar who said it had to be on December 25th.

loCAtek wrote:Why, would I dispute it?

loCAtek wrote:No, I'm saying they were likely based on real people at one time, but have been embellished into folklore

Crackpot wrote:Not really Easter "happened" during Passover so it's placed where it's placed (with some editing to fit the Gregorian Calander) due to a congruency of events rather than a blatant attempt to Hijack.

"About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection.

"... used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation."

Crackpot wrote:Easter is set up off the Gregorian calendar the same was Passover is set up off the Jewish. Which sets Passover as being far earlier and and the Adoption of the Gregorian Date (in about 450 AD IIRC) which puts it far later. Sounds like a coincidence or a Highjack by the other side to me.