Plan B Forum

A bit long but an interesting rant on a well-worn topic by Dr Denis Leary:

Imagine this scenario:

You run an organisation which is in the business of killing and stealing. When one of the guys who works for you gets caught killing and stealing-instead of going to jail or getting the death penalty - you send him to a new town where he can kill and steal some more.

And you keep on doing that over and over again with a ton of guys who work for you until - finally - someone in one of these victimized towns decides to stand up and say - hey, who the hell told these guys they can just come in here and kill and steal? Then - and only then - do you submit to the basic laws of humankind and agree to prosecute the guys who work for you and turn them over to the authorities.

Sound like the Mafia?

No - the Mafia would LOVE to have that business plan.
The very same business plan the Catholic Church has used for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Priests have been allowed to kill the trust and faith of young boys and steal their innocence and their souls through rampant sexual abuse and the church's reaction has been to transfer each offending father to a different parish. That way he gets to abuse a whole new set of kids and the church gets to keep all its money.

'Cause that's what it's all about, folks. Moolah.

The Original Popes (good name for a band) were allowed to marry and have sex and produce children but eventually this led to affairs and the Bastard Children - let's call them the pope-arazzi - started showing up unannounced and demanding money and land. The church - realising what a lousy system this was - decided to declare that all future priests and popes had to remain Celibate - thereby giving them the public rank of monks and thereby allowing the church to exist in a tax-free domain.

Priests weren't giving up sex to prove their devotion to God. They gave it up so the church could BUY stuff: more land, more gold, mo' dresses, mo' hats. Could there be a more hat-centric organisation on the planet? The priesthood is like a giant army and all the rankings are based on headwear - the bigger the hat, the more important the guy.

Once they had chosen the No Sex But Plenty Of Elaborate Outfits route, was it any wonder that men with a penchant for other men and free-flowing robes would sign up? And, of course, one thing led to another and one day some priest realised he had an attraction to little boys and - what a surprise - happened to be in a job where he was SURROUNDED by the little fellas - WHAT A JACKPOT!
And off to the sex abuse races they went. Until the charges started trickling in.

The Catholic Church avoided cooperating in sex abuse investigations all over the earth until they absolutely had to start coughing up the cabbage. Meanwhile, thousands and thousands of young boys and young men had their lives forever forsaken by these Pedophiles On Parade. And then - to top it all off - they deign to tell young couples on the verge of marriage what it takes to form a long-lasting union or hormone-crazed teenage girls what form of birth control they can or cannot use.

Well the jig is up, jokers.

Two billion dollars in we're-so-sorry payments later doesn't mean dick to the ex-altar boys who sought your counsel and confirmation but ended up instead committing suicide or sitting on a sofa four times a week spilling their guts out to a shrink - two billion barely cracks the bill for lifelong therapy. Especially in Manhattan...

It's time to take the pontiff and his pontificates to task.

Oh thX sean, we were needing an example of the 'priests are pedophiles' myth.

Poor Dr. Leary, the Pope of Dope, I believe this was from his 'stand up philosopher' stage, when he admits to just making things up for a shock/laff.

I dunno how reputable I'd find the philosophy of guy who's wife and daughter killed themselves, and who was publicly denounced by his own son.

When he was dying in 1996, he was mostly famous for being famous, the oldest celebutant, a 76-year-old guy in a wheelchair at the Viper Room

Uh, pssst, drunken idiot, perhaps before you choose to make yourself look even more ridiculous (if that's even possible) by labelling the sexual abuse of children by priests a "myth", you might learn the difference between Timothy Leary and Denis Leary.

Guess the liquor stores open early out in your parts, because you've obviously gotten off to an early morning start with your mouth on a bottle.

Pure gold!

I loved the way she even claimed to recognise the era it was from...

Laughed? I thought I'd never dry out.

In fact I'd better quote it before she edits it away...

loCAtek wrote:Oh thX sean, we were needing an example of the 'priests are pedophiles' myth.

Poor Dr. Leary, the Pope of Dope, I believe this was from his 'stand up philosopher' stage, when he admits to just making things up for a shock/laff.

I dunno how reputable I'd find the philosophy of guy who's wife and daughter killed themselves, and who was publicly denounced by his own son.

When he was dying in 1996, he was mostly famous for being famous, the oldest celebutant, a 76-year-old guy in a wheelchair at the Viper Room

Still comedy, this would best be in Laffs.

loCAtek wrote:Still comedy, this would best be in Laffs.

Stunning. You still can't admit you made a mistake?

loCAtek wrote:Still comedy, this would best be in Laffs.

Absolutely not! It's his opinions on a VERY religious matter. He expresses them with a sense of humour but you wouldn't know the difference between that and comedy would you...

Oh and priests abusing children is a myth is it? Are you serious or just seriously twatted?

loCAtek wrote:Still comedy, this would best be in Laffs.

So now not only is child sexual abuse by priests a "myth", it is also something that should be laughed about.

Incredible. Didn't think it would be possible for her to crawl any lower. Guess I should stop falling into the trap of overestimating people.

Yes, unfortunately the RC church is staffed by humans who are sinners and make mistakes. It is also unfortunate that in the early days, there was a combination of a "circle the wagons" mentality, coupled with a serious discounting of the harm done by pederasts. And most of the leaders were naive in believing that once a priest had "confessed his sins," and promised to sin no more the problem was solved. It was not as clear thirty years ago how persistent this perversion is - it appears that one is never "cured" of it.

SOme people - both the actors, and those who repeatedly enabled them - deserve the most severe punishments that the civil laws are capable of meting out.

And let's look at the other side of the "moolah" issue.

Taking money from The Church and paying it out to victims accomplishes nothing. The money comes from Church members who put their money into the collection basket every Sunday, hoping that it will further the work of Christ on earth. They are entirely blameless, yet they must pay the bills. The perpetrators and their enablers are typically impecunious and are in a position to pay nothing.

Among the victims, there are obviously a large number who have been emotionally and psychologically damaged for life. and money won't do anything to correct that. The Church has made, in almost every single case, offers of counseling and emotional support to the greatest extent possible. Sadly, there is nothing more than can be done.

A financial payout is not a solution; it is merely a means of punishing the blameless to provide a financial windfall to the victims and their LAWYERS.

The money that the Church has, in large part, is used to educate kids, to feed the hungry, clothe and house the poor, to take care of the sick, unwanted kids, pregnant girls, and so forth. The money that goes to pay these plaintiffs and their lawyers doesn't come from the perpetrators, it is taken away from these other innocents who may not get help because the well is running dry.

And this whole sordid episode has brought every anti-Catholic bigot out of the woodwork and given them "cover" to excoriate the Church and the Clergy, notwithstanding the fact that only a couple percent of parish and order priests have ever been credibly accused of anything. Indeed, most Catholic parishes are very happy with their priests, and in fact most Catholics have never personally known anyone who was victimized. I know I never have - but I've only been a Catholic for 61 years, so I'm still waiting.

So, personally, when I hear someone saying or writing that this whole episode is just about the greed of the Catholic Church...well, you can imagine my reaction. Just one more bigot piling on.

Knock yourself out. The Church is doing fine.

dgs49 wrote:Yes, unfortunately the RC church is staffed by humans who are sinners and make mistakes

So why would anyone in their right mind go there for advice and counselling? If I am ill, I will visit a doctor because I know they are all well trained and DON'T make mistakes: if they do - and here's the difference - they are no longer permitted to be doctors.

dgs49 wrote: Just one more bigot piling on.

So easy for someone to call it bigotry when the view disagrees with theirs. The point, as far as I am aware, is that the Catholic Church (and other denominations) operate under their own set of rules and try to be above the law - and that is just wrong. The coverups of this sick cancer and disgusting - and they do seem to go right the way to the top. Just because many in the Church are innocent does not mean it isn't sick, disgusting and wrong. Just because you don't personally know anyone who has been knowingly wronged doesn't make it right.

The Church - ANY of them - should NOT simply move paedophiles to other parishes. They should report them and get the sick bastards behind bars. This doesn't happen. It isn't just about the sickos who do the molesting - it is about the others who know about it and do nothing. Where else does this happen? Let's think of another large organisation - say, IBM. If we found out that many of their staff were popping out do "do some molesting" and, when they had been found out, were simply shuffled to other IBM branches, would we accept that cancer? Or close the company down? The News of the World have just been closed down because some of their number had, in the past, done some phone hacking. I am sure many in the New of the World were perfectly nice people. They still got closed down.

dgs49 wrote:Knock yourself out. The Church is doing fine

Really? This is what you term "doing fine"? Wow!

dgs49 wrote:Yes, unfortunately the RC church is staffed by humans who are sinners and make mistakes.

Mistakes? That is completely trivialising the matter. Neglecting to carry a 1 when adding up numbers is a 'mistake'. Getting a tattoo whilst drunk is a 'mistake'. Abusing small chidren is not a 'mistake'. Protecting an abuser is not a 'mistake'. Both of these actions are reprehensible, criminal acts and morally speaking I prefer the term 'despicable abomination' to 'mistake'.

It is also unfortunate that in the early days, there was a combination of a "circle the wagons" mentality, coupled with a serious discounting of the harm done by pederasts.

Substitute the word 'despicable' for the word 'unfortunate' and you're getting closer to the mark. Again, trivialising the matter.
And speaking of trivialising matters, a pederast is a man who is involved in a reciprocal, intimate relationship with a young boy. The word you are looking for is pedophile.

And most of the leaders were naive in believing that once a priest had "confessed his sins," and promised to sin no more the problem was solved. It was not as clear thirty years ago how persistent this perversion is - it appears that one is never "cured" of it.

I don't believe that for a second. What about the second time the fucker offended? The third time? Nobody is that naive. You're making excuses for them.

SOme people - both the actors, and those who repeatedly enabled them - deserve the most severe punishments that the civil laws are capable of meting out.

Agreed. I'm not sure which I find more loathesome... the fuckers who perpetrated these crimes or the fuckers who protected them. I do believe that in order to make a difference there needs to be accountability at the highest level of the church and yes, I do mean the Pope. Let him know that he is liable for the actions of his underlings (after all, they do operate under his 'infallible' rules) and I imagine that a Papal decree regarding the protection of abusers would be issued pretty sharpish!

And let's look at the other side of the "moolah" issue.

Taking money from The Church and paying it out to victims accomplishes nothing. The money comes from Church members who put their money into the collection basket every Sunday, hoping that it will further the work of Christ on earth. They are entirely blameless, yet they must pay the bills. The perpetrators and their enablers are typically impecunious and are in a position to pay nothing.

I agree that compensation should not be paid by the ordinary blameless Catholics. What I would question is why an organisation as fabulously wealthy as the Catholic Church (probably the richest organisation on the planet... we can't know as they have no accountability) continues to accumulate even more wealth through these collections.

Among the victims, there are obviously a large number who have been emotionally and psychologically damaged for life. and money won't do anything to correct that. The Church has made, in almost every single case, offers of counseling and emotional support to the greatest extent possible. Sadly, there is nothing more than can be done.

How about allowing the perpetrators to be brought to justice?

A financial payout is not a solution; it is merely a means of punishing the blameless to provide a financial windfall to the victims and their LAWYERS.

Take their gold reserves then. Use that to mete out compensation.

The money that the Church has, in large part, is used to educate kids, to feed the hungry, clothe and house the poor, to take care of the sick, unwanted kids, pregnant girls, and so forth.

Does that include the billions upon billions of dollars worth of gold, art, land etc owned by the church?

The money that goes to pay these plaintiffs and their lawyers doesn't come from the perpetrators, it is taken away from these other innocents who may not get help because the well is running dry.

Running dry? That's a laugh!

And this whole sordid episode has brought every anti-Catholic bigot out of the woodwork and given them "cover" to excoriate the Church and the Clergy, notwithstanding the fact that only a couple percent of parish and order priests have ever been credibly accused of anything.

So now it is considered bigotry to abhor the abusers and their protectors is it? Oh and while just a small percentage of priests are known to be pedophiles when you start to consider the number who got away with it scot-free (we'll never know how many) and the number of clergy involved in the cover-up the number rises dramatically. Wouldn't you agree?

Indeed, most Catholic parishes are very happy with their priests, and in fact most Catholics have never personally known anyone who was victimized.

Do you have a citation for that?

I know I never have - but I've only been a Catholic for 61 years, so I'm still waiting.

No you don't. I only found out in recent years that I knew two as a child. You may yet be surprised...
I'd also bet that in those 61 years you've met a few who were at least involved in the conspiracy. These fuckwits don't wear signs around their necks or have it tattooed across their foreheads (now there's an idea). In many cases the only people in the know are the abused themselves. When you are a scared young boy who has been abused that way by a 'pillar of the community' who repeatedly tells you that YOU are the sinner for tempting the priest, that if you tell you will go to hell and that nobody will believe you anyway you tend to keep schtum.*

So, personally, when I hear someone saying or writing that this whole episode is just about the greed of the Catholic Church...well, you can imagine my reaction. Just one more bigot piling on.

So it's not considered greedy to stockpile wealth as they do? Whatever happened to vows of poverty?

Knock yourself out. The Church is doing fine.

By the church's own standards they are doing fine. Mind you, there are probably amoebae with better standards...



*I have the best source possible for this. A distant cousin and friend of mine who was abused for years by the parish curate. I won't of course be revealing his identity but am happy to reveal that of the priest. He is Fr NOEL CLARKE, once of the Parish of Backs, Knockmore, Co. Mayo, Ireland.

I was once an altar boy alongside that victim...

It's an honorary doctorate (I think in writing) which is probably why you've never heard him refer to himself as such. I was thrown by that title, when I googled Dr. Leary; in searching in what context these comments were made. [Since mysteriously, no link was provided] Even the internet doesn't think of Denis as a doctor.
Certainly not a Phd. of theology or psychology; in fact this mish-mash of outrage and distorted facts (his trademark 'asshole' stage persona, which is why the song 'asshole' is played throughout the show ) is a stand-up bit of Denis', and not meant to be taken as a serious lecture, but to bought by the busload on DVD for shits and giggles.
Hell no, the man has a sense of humor, which I greatly admire. Therefore, this OP should be in Laffs.

BTW - Clue #1 - the first Popes were not called popes, but Bishops of Rome.

So, why debate [an intricate and clever] strawman, regardless that it's entertaining?


This is in fact an except from;

Denis Leary & Friends: Douchebags and Donuts

COMEDY CENTRAL

Aired on Friday, Apr 29, 2011 (4/29/2011) at 09:58 PM


Denis Leary & Friends Present: Douchebags & Donuts is a new comedy special recorded live in New York late last year. This particular performance--which features stand-up sets by Leary, Whitney Cummings, Lenny Clarke, and Adam Ferrara--was the capper to a country-wide tour, and all the shows were done in part to benefit the Leary Firefighters Foundation, a charity set up by the Rescue Me star. Money from sales of this DVD will also be donated to the charity, so this is laughter for a good cause.

The DVD also includes limericks:

• "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned—yeah, pull down my pants and put your penis in"
• "Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not lie, and don't drop the soap when the pope is nearby. Cause they may hate gays but they do love the guys"
• "Well, the nuns are goin' down on other nuns, and the priests are chasin' after altar boy buns, and the pope will move you when the damage is done"
• "Jesus, Mary and Josephine, well this church is full of some giant queens, so break out the candles and the Vaseline"

...and the reviews are mainly positive;

He goes on to skewer conservative leaders, drug companies, my personal favorite idiot white douchebags in hip hop clothing, man purses, racism and more.

Be warned this is not for everyone though as there are no punches pulled chances are if you are a regular visitor to your local church no matter the denomination, Leary’s humor is not for you, but for the rest of us, it doesn’t get better than Leary at his best who is taking the no bullshit crown over from the recently passed king of biting observational humor, George Carlin. Leary wears Carlin’s crown with pride.

The DVD of this special will be released on January 18th which is extended and uncensored will have a ton of bonus material and music.

As with most of what Denis does, a portion of the proceeds will benefit The Leary Firefighters Foundation which in our mind is one of the best charities in the country.

I'd luv to see the rest of his act, he's wicked cool, pls provide the link!

Meanwhile, back in reality his personal beliefs are;

Leary has said of his religious beliefs, "I'm a lapsed Catholic in the best sense of the word. You know, I was raised with Irish parents, Irish immigrant parents. My parents, you know, prayed all the time, took us to Mass. And my father would sometimes swear in Gaelic. It doesn't get more religious than that. But, no, after a while, they taught us wrong. I didn't raise my kids with the fear of God. I raised my kids with the sense of, you know, to me, Jesus was this great guy...."[21]

Or else, his 'comedy' book - Why We Suck'

said on Amazon;

In the Prologue, Leary comes out saying that this is a comedy book. It is a parody, satire and poking fun. His exaggerated take on life. That's what all comedians do and Leary does it well. He also points out that there are endless things you can buy in America - but a sense of humor isn't one of them. Well put.

loCAtek wrote:It's an honorary doctorate (I think in writing) which is probably why you've never heard him refer to himself as such. I was thrown by that title, when I googled Dr. Leary; in searching in what context these comments were made.

An honorary doctorate gives him the right to use the title of 'doctor'. I actually posted his full name in the OP. Not my fault that your reading comprehension is lacking.

[Since mysteriously, no link was provided] Even the internet doesn't think of Denis as a doctor.

A link would have been provided if I had copied and pasted from a website... which I didn't. So not mysterious at all.

Certainly not a Phd. of theology or psychology; in fact this mish-mash of outrage and distorted facts (his trademark 'asshole' stage persona, which is why the song 'asshole' is played throughout the show ) is a stand-up bit of Denis', and not meant to be taken as a serious lecture, but to bought by the busload on DVD for shits and giggles.

This is not part of a stand-up act. If you feel that he is distorting facts then feel free to point out the distortion. Facts are not distorted just because you say they are.

Hell no, the man has a sense of humor, which I greatly admire. Therefore, this OP should be in Laffs.

The subject matter is religious therefore it is in the right place. If the board admin (whose opinion on such things actually matters) feel otherwise I'm sure they'll let me know.

BTW - Clue #1 - the first Popes were not called popes, but Bishops of Rome.

So, why debate [an intricate and clever] strawman, regardless that it's entertaining?

The strawman is yours

Simon Peter is venerated in multiple churches and is regarded as the first Pope by the Roman Catholic Church
Source

If the first Pope can be referred to as Pope then so can those who came after.

This is in fact an except from;

Denis Leary & Friends: Douchebags and Donuts

COMEDY CENTRAL

Aired on Friday, Apr 29, 2011 (4/29/2011) at 09:58 PM


Denis Leary & Friends Present: Douchebags & Donuts is a new comedy special recorded live in New York late last year. This particular performance--which features stand-up sets by Leary, Whitney Cummings, Lenny Clarke, and Adam Ferrara--was the capper to a country-wide tour, and all the shows were done in part to benefit the Leary Firefighters Foundation, a charity set up by the Rescue Me star. Money from sales of this DVD will also be donated to the charity, so this is laughter for a good cause.

The DVD also includes limericks:

• "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned—yeah, pull down my pants and put your penis in"
• "Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not lie, and don't drop the soap when the pope is nearby. Cause they may hate gays but they do love the guys"
• "Well, the nuns are goin' down on other nuns, and the priests are chasin' after altar boy buns, and the pope will move you when the damage is done"
• "Jesus, Mary and Josephine, well this church is full of some giant queens, so break out the candles and the Vaseline"

...and the reviews are mainly positive;

He goes on to skewer conservative leaders, drug companies, my personal favorite idiot white douchebags in hip hop clothing, man purses, racism and more.

Be warned this is not for everyone though as there are no punches pulled chances are if you are a regular visitor to your local church no matter the denomination, Leary’s humor is not for you, but for the rest of us, it doesn’t get better than Leary at his best who is taking the no bullshit crown over from the recently passed king of biting observational humor, George Carlin. Leary wears Carlin’s crown with pride.

The DVD of this special will be released on January 18th which is extended and uncensored will have a ton of bonus material and music.

As with most of what Denis does, a portion of the proceeds will benefit The Leary Firefighters Foundation which in our mind is one of the best charities in the country.

I'd luv to see the rest of his act, he's wicked cool, pls provide the link!

You are incorrect. It is not from that source.

Meanwhile, back in reality his personal beliefs are;

Leary has said of his religious beliefs, "I'm a lapsed Catholic in the best sense of the word. You know, I was raised with Irish parents, Irish immigrant parents. My parents, you know, prayed all the time, took us to Mass. And my father would sometimes swear in Gaelic. It doesn't get more religious than that. But, no, after a while, they taught us wrong. I didn't raise my kids with the fear of God. I raised my kids with the sense of, you know, to me, Jesus was this great guy...."[21]

So are you allowing him an opinion then?

loCAtek wrote:

In the Prologue, Leary comes out saying that this is a comedy book. It is a parody, satire and poking fun. His exaggerated take on life. That's what all comedians do and Leary does it well. He also points out that there are endless things you can buy in America - but a sense of humor isn't one of them. Well put.

Facts from Wiki:

The first record in history of the term "Pope" is assigned to Pope Heraclas of Alexandria in a letter written by the bishop of Rome, Dionysius, to Philemon:

τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον.[9]

Which translates into:

I received this rule and ordinance from our blessed pope, Heraclas.

It is difficult to ascertain the identity of the first Bishop of Rome to carry the title Pope of Rome. Some sources suggest that it was Pope Marcellinus (d. 304 AD),[10] while other sources suggest that this did not happen until the 6th century, with Pope John I (523–6 AD) the first to assume this title.[7]

St. Peter was retro actively called the first Pope, meaning the first leader of the Christian church. In his day, he was not even titled as Bishop, but only known as the 'Rock' of the Church.

BTW Amazon. com says this excerpt is from Chapter 18: The Pope is a Pimp, from Why We Suck: A Feel Good Guide to Staying Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid
http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Suck-Stayi ... 0670031607

Product Description

Leary says the point of the book was to tell people not to take themselves so seriously;

Why We Suck: A Feel Good Guide to Staying Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid is a 2008 book by Irish-American television and movie star, comedian and commentator Denis Leary.

Leary is credited on the book cover as "Dr. Denis Leary", a reference to a joke from his 1993 stand-up special, No Cure for Cancer. During the show he mentions he wants to write a self help book entitled "Shut the Fuck Up, by Dr. Denis Leary", with the "advice" being telling the people seeking help the one thing no one has ever told them to do ("shut the fuck up"), which he believes would help people more than actual advice.

Leary also has legitimate use of the "Doctor" title because of an honorary doctorate bestowed upon him by his alma mater Emerson College.[1] "Sure it’s just a celebrity type of thing--they only gave it to me because I’m famous." Leary explains. "But it’s legal and it means I get to say I’m a doctor--just like Dr. Phil."[2] In the book, he refers to Dr. Phil as Dr. Full.[3]

The book reached #7 on the New York Times Best Sellers list in December, 2008.[4]

Too bad, they don't sell senses of humor in Oz, sounds like a hilarious book, can I borrow it, since you're noting using either of them?

Sean has already stated that the excerpt he lifting was NOT from that book.

I thought that point was worth reiterating as you seem to still think it was from what you posted above.
It isn't, so your points would be invalid.

loCAtek wrote:[Facts from Wiki:

The first record in history of the term "Pope" is assigned to Pope Heraclas of Alexandria in a letter written by the bishop of Rome, Dionysius, to Philemon:

τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον.[9]

Which translates into:

I received this rule and ordinance from our blessed pope, Heraclas.

It is difficult to ascertain the identity of the first Bishop of Rome to carry the title Pope of Rome. Some sources suggest that it was Pope Marcellinus (d. 304 AD),[10] while other sources suggest that this did not happen until the 6th century, with Pope John I (523–6 AD) the first to assume this title.[7]

St. Peter was retro actively called the first Pope, meaning the first leader of the Christian church. In his day, he was not even titled as Bishop, but only known as the 'Rock' of the Church.

Where does Leary say anything about them being called "Pope" at the time? He calls them "the original Popes", which is, of course, how they are considered today. What does what they were called at the time have to do with it? Absolutely nothing, because you are once again reading something that isn't there.

BTW Amazon. com says this excerpt is from Chapter 18: The Pope is a Pimp, from Why We Suck: A Feel Good Guide to Staying Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid

Of course, Amazon.com says nothing of the kind.

I searched high and Lo on Amazon.com. The only thing they mentioned about chapter 18 was it's title.

Can you link to the precise Lo?








Or failing that, admit you are typing bollocks ....

So, are there two Denis Leary's? The only one I know of is the comedian (who happens to be a very good comedian, and I love Rescue Me)