How NOT to be an atheist.

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loCAtek
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How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

Sam Harris on meditation and the dangers of Dawkins-style atheism
...from the point of view of our contemplative traditions... and this is to reduce them all down to a cartoon version that ignores the rather esoteric disputes between them... our habitual failure to recognize thought as thought, our habitual identification with discursive thought, is a primary source of human suffering, and when a person breaks this spell, an extraordinary kind of relief is available. Now the problem with a contemplative claim of this sort is that you can't borrow someone else's contemplative tools to test it. You have to develop your own tools.

Imagine in the science of astronomy, if you couldn't even observe whether there was a phenomenon worth looking at unless you built your own telescope: This would be an immense barrier to establishing astronomy as a science. It wouldn't make the sky any less worthy of our investigation, but it would be an immense impediment. To judge the claims of contemplatives, we have to build our own telescope. In judging their metaphysical claims and their philosophical claims we can use thought itself: many of these can be dismissed as bad science or bad philosophy on their merits. But to judge whether certain experiences are possible, and if possible, desirable, we have to able to use our own attention in the requisite ways, if only for a few moments.

Now one problem with atheism, it seems to me, as a category of thought, is that it's almost synonymous with not being interested in such phenomena, almost synonymous with not being interested in what the Buddha (or Jesus) may have experienced in his life. It seems to me that many atheists, though perhaps not all, reject such experiences out of hand as being undesirable or impossible. Another common mistake is to imagine that whatever experience these contemplatives have had, they're identical to experiences we're all familiar with -- they're identical to scientific awe or aesthetic appreciation or artistic inspiration. Let me just say as someone who has made his own modest efforts in this area, when someone goes into solitude for months or years at a time, and trains himself in meditation for fifteen to eighteen hours a day, doing nothing but observe the contents of his own consciousness and try not to be lost in thought: not reading, not writing, not talking, just making an effort moment to moment to pay undivided attention to the arising of thought and the arising of sensory experience, he experiences things that most scientists and artists are not familiar with, unless they've made the identical introspective efforts. And these experiences have something to say about the plasticity of human experience itself and the possibilities of human happiness. So apart from just commending these phenomena to your attention, I want to say that our neglect of these phenomena as atheists puts us at a rhetorical disadvantage. Because millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them. And these experiences are often the most important and transformative in their lives. And if we by definition ignore them because of their entanglement with religion, we appear less wise than even our crazy religious opponents.

Now, I don't know if, as J. B. S. Haldane said, the universe is not only stranger than we suppose but stranger than we can suppose, but I'm pretty sure that it is stranger than we as atheists, tend to represent while advocating atheism. I mean, as atheists we tend to give people the sense, and even give ourselves the sense, that we are well on the way to purging the universe of mystery. As advocates of reason, we know mystery is going to be with us for quite some time. In fact there are good reasons to believe that mystery may be inerradicable from our circumstance. Because however much we understand the universe, it seems there might well always be brute facts which we can't explain, but which we must use to explain everything else. Now, this is not a problem for human life. It is not a barrier to human happiness. But we are faced with the task of convincing a myth-infatuated world that love and curiosity are sufficient, and that you don't have to delude yourself and frighten yourself with iron-age fairy tales. This is a monumental task. I don't think there's any intellectual struggle more worthy of our efforts. But it seems to me that we should not, in this effort, fight in well-ordered ranks like the red coats of atheism.

It's worth thinking about what victory will look like. Again, the example of racism seems instructive to me. What will it look like when we finally conquer the evil of racism, should that happy day ever dawn? It's certainly not going to be a world in which a majority of people profess themselves to be nonracist. It will very likely be a world in which the very concept of separate races has lost its meaning. I think if we win this war of ideas with religion, we will find ourselves in world in which the concept of atheism is nonintelligible. It'll be a concept like non-astrology. Now I think this is absolutely worth fighting for. I think in fact this may be the only future compatible with our survival as a species, and this'll be a world where people simply cease to praise one another for believing things, or pretending to believe things, for which they have no evidence. But the only path between now and then, that I can see, is for us to be unremittingly honest, and to advocate intellectual honesty. It seems to me that intellectual honesty will always be more durable and deeper and more easily spread, than atheism. Thank you very much.


Long but worth the watch;




BTW 'Buddha' translates as 'thought'

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Crackpot
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Crackpot »

too easy
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

'Cha, but I thought it was well said.

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Scooter
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

Indeed. He says that the strength of America is being "corrupted" by the fact that the U.S. is so overwhelmingly Christian.

Glad to see you agree.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

I agree with him practicing Buddhist Meditation.

You can be glad for Mr. Harris, as those were his comments, but a la' Jeopardy™, I'll take your response in the form of a question;

Scooter wrote:Do you agree with Sam Harris when says that the strength of America is being "corrupted" by the fact that the U.S. is so overwhelmingly Christian?
Answer: No, not when over time the U.S. has become less Christian, not more.

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Scooter
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

So he makes sense, but only when you agree with what he says.

Typical alcoholic's response.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

A la' Jeopardy™, I'll take your response in the form of a question;
Scooter wrote:Do you think he makes sense only because he agrees with you, or because you're an alcoholic?
Answer: I hadn't heard this lecture before, so I didn't know what I agreed with or not, while being an alcoholic is irrelevant. Much I agree with and makes sense to me, since I am also a Buddhist practitioner, but it's a logically fallacy, as well as a social one, to suggest that because you share one of a person's perspectives, that you share all of them.

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

Scooter wrote:
Typical alcoholic's response.
Realy? begging your pardon, but what's a 'typical alcoholic'? I wasn't aware there was one? :loon

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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

Typical alcoholic's response, as in typical response from an alcoholic. In this case, praising someone only so long as he/she speaks/acts in accordance with your wishes/preferences, and dissing them when they don't.

It's something you should have learned about in recovery. Oh, that's right, you're not in recovery, you're still a full fledged drunk.

And you're right, alcohol sure doesn't explain all of your behavioural issues, some are just about your innate personality disorder.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

I'm sorry, but your response has to be in the form of question. Pls try again.

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Sean
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Sean »

loCAtek wrote:A la' Jeopardy™, I'll take your response in the form of a question;
Scooter wrote:Do you think he makes sense only because he agrees with you, or because you're an alcoholic?
Answer: I hadn't heard this lecture before, so I didn't know what I agreed with or not, while being an alcoholic is irrelevant. Much I agree with and makes sense to me, since I am also a Buddhist practitioner, but it's a logically fallacy, as well as a social one, to suggest that because you share one of a person's perspectives, that you share all of them.
If you feel the need to change what somebody wrote then at least have the grace and courtesy not to post it in the form of a direct quote...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Scooter
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

Well, she didn't try to lie and pretend that she's in recovery, that's something.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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Sean
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Sean »

That's right Scoot, 'recovery' is for those who have a problem and want to do something about it... Not for those special 'alcoholics' who can cut down their drinking by two thirds... :lol:
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Scooter
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

Two thirds of an ounce, maybe.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

Aw we're sorry, but that's not correct, but ThX for playing!

We'll send you home with a life-times supply of Rice-A=Roni™ - The San Francisco Treat! and a copy of the home version of Jeopardy!™ that you can enjoy with your family.

G'night folks, next up: Paparazzi on E!

Stay tuned!

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Scooter
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

So not even two thirds of an ounce.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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The Hen
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by The Hen »

Just a brief comment rom me ....

Can we lay off the "alcoholic LoCAtek" comments please.

I realise that her postings are all over the place and seem just to be for causing a ruckus on the Board for whatever purpose she has decided on for the day.

But can we just pick apart how stupid they are without reference to what Lo may, or may not, have had to drink?
Bah!

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loCAtek
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by loCAtek »

...and we're back with our new segment; 'Passive Aggressive Paparazzi' - 'They're only sniffing your crotch to help you'

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The Hen
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by The Hen »

Please Lo. This is doing nothing for the Board. I am not interested in 'helping' you at all, just the Board.

It may be your intention to drive all posters away, but I would rather you didn't.

Time and resources have been invested here and I would rather it wasn't pulled down the drain.

Many thanks in advance.
Bah!

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Scooter
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Re: How NOT to be an atheist.

Post by Scooter »

Hen, that will be like trying to discuss why the room smells without making mention of the huge elephant turd in the middle of the floor, but anything for you, darling lady :)
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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