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Only the Dutch....

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:57 pm
by Gob
Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world


By Robert Pigott Religious affairs correspondent, Amsterdam

The Rev Klaas Hendrikse can offer his congregation little hope of life after death, and he's not the sort of man to sugar the pill.

An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland.

It is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN), and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."

Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.

His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out.

A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist.

The Rev Kirsten Slattenaar, Exodus Church's regular priest, also rejects the idea - widely considered central to Christianity - that Jesus was divine as well as human.

"I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself."

Mrs Slattenaar acknowledges that she's changing what the Church has said, but, she insists, not the "real meaning of Christianity".

She says that there "is not only one answer" and complains that "a lot of traditional beliefs are outside people and have grown into rigid things that you can't touch any more".

Dienie van Wingaarden, who's been going to Exodus Church for 20 years, is among lay people attracted to such free thinking.

"I think it's very liberating. [Klaas Hendrikse] is using the Bible in a metaphorical way so I can bring it to my own way of thinking, my own way of doing."

Wim De Jong says, "Here you can believe what you want to think for yourself, what you really feel and believe is true."

Churches in Amsterdam were hoping to attract such people with a recent open evening.

At the Old Church "in the hottest part of the red light district", the attractions included "speed-dating".

As skimpily dressed girls began to appear in red-lit windows in the streets outside, visitors to the church moved from table to table to discuss love with a succession of strangers.

Professor Hijme Stoeffels of the Free University in Amsterdam says it is in such concepts as love that people base their diffuse ideas of religion.

"In our society it's called 'somethingism'," he says. "There must be 'something' between heaven and earth, but to call it 'God', and even 'a personal God', for the majority of Dutch is a bridge too far.

"Christian churches are in a market situation. They can offer their ideas to a majority of the population which is interested in spirituality or some kind of religion."

To compete in this market of ideas, some Christian groups seem ready virtually to reinvent Christianity.

They want the Netherlands to be a laboratory for Christianity, experimenting with radical new ways of understanding the faith.

Stroom ("Stream") West is the experiment devised by one church to reach out to the young people.

In an Amsterdam theatre young people contemplate the concept of eternity by spacing out a heap of rice grains individually across the floor.

"The difference from other churches is that we are… experimenting with the contents of the gospel," says Rikko Voorberg, who helps to run Stroom West. "Traditionally we bring a beautiful story and ask people to sit down listen and get convinced. This is the other way around."

Stroom focuses on people's personal search for God, not on the church's traditional black-and-white answers.

Rikko believes traditional Christianity places God in too restricted a box.

He believes that in a post-modern society that no longer has the same belief in certainty, there is an urgent need to "take God out of the box".

"The Church has to be alert to what is going on in society," he says. "It has to change to stay Christian. You can't preach heaven in the same way today as you did 2,000 years ago, and we have to think again what it is. We can use the same words and say something totally different."

When I asked Rikko whether he believed Jesus was the son of God he looked uncomfortable.

"That's a very tough question. I'm not sure what it means," he says.

"People have very strict ideas about what it means. Some ideas I might agree with, some ideas I don't."

Such equivocation is anathema in Holland's Bible Belt, among the large number of people who live according to strict Christian orthodoxy.

In the quiet town of Staphorst about a quarter of the population attends the conservative Dutch Reformed Church every Sunday.

The town even has a by-law against swearing.

Its deputy mayor, Sytse de Jong, accuses progressive groups of trying to change Christianity to fit current social norms.

"When we get people into the Church by throwing Jesus Christ out of the Church, then we lose the core of Christianity. Then we are not reforming the institutions and attitudes but the core of our message."

But many churches are keen to work with anyone who believes in "something".

They believe that only through adaptation can their religion survive.

The young people at Stroom West write on plates the names of those things that prevent earth from being heaven - cancer, war, hunger - and destroy them symbolically.

The new Christianity is already developing its own ritual.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:51 pm
by loCAtek
Very c :ok ool

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:18 pm
by The Hen
The Dutch celebrate being agnostic in very overt ways.

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:56 pm
by dales
Image

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:07 pm
by Sue U
But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."
Why is this view considered "bleak"? It is exactly the view that I hold, and that underlies the Reform, Reconstructionist, and to an ever-increasing extent Conservative/Masorti branches of Judaism. What is "bleak" about making the focus of religion the improvement of the human condition here and now? What is "bleak" about finding godliness in community rather than in some supernatural construct? To the contrary, I find it exceedingly hopeful and empowering; the message is that a better world is up to us, and within our reach.

I admit that I have never understood the traditional Christian emphases of Jesus's divinity and life after death. What do they matter?

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:24 pm
by Gob
It's bleak if you've pinned your hope on the "jam tomorrow"promised by traditional Christianity, I think Sue.

Ps. I think you strange buggers call jam, "jelly".

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:43 pm
by loCAtek
Sue U wrote:What do they matter?
Well, if you're concerned, with more than yourself after your a passing, :shrug

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:57 pm
by Sue U
Gob wrote:I think you strange buggers call jam, "jelly".
This is America, mate; we have jelly, jam and preserves. :nana

I don't think "jam tomorrow" can really be the whole of it; Meade and Crackpot are no fools, and I think both have made conscious decisions to embrace traditional (?) Christianity. I would really like to hear from both explaining why.
loCAtek wrote:
Sue U wrote:What do they matter?
Well, if you're concerned, with more than yourself after your a passing, :shrug
I have no idea what you mean by this. If you have an explanation as to why these things matter to you, I'd like to hear it.

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:53 pm
by Gob
I bet you wont! :lol:

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:54 pm
by Gob
Sue U wrote:
Gob wrote:I think you strange buggers call jam, "jelly".
This is America, mate; we have jelly, jam and preserves. :nana

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:04 pm
by The Hen
'Nother off topic post. Sorry.
Sue U wrote:
Gob wrote:I think you strange buggers call jam, "jelly".
This is America, mate; we have jelly, jam and preserves. :nana
So the difference is:

'Jelly' is an entirely strained 'jam' with no identifiable fruit product in it;
'Jam is a conserve of fruit that is palpable, you might find seeds or small squishy lumps of a fruit like apricot or cherry in it; and
'Preserves' have large identifiable parts of fruit product, like peel in marmalade; OR
'Preserves' are bottled whole fruit.

?

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:48 pm
by Sue U
That's the way I understand it. (Damn, now where did I put the strawberry preserves?)

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:03 am
by loCAtek
Sue U wrote:
loCAtek wrote:
Sue U wrote:What do they matter?
Well, if you're concerned, with more than yourself after your a passing, :shrug
I have no idea what you mean by this. If you have an explanation as to why these things matter to you, I'd like to hear it.
Other people matter very much to me. There will be plenty of other folks after I'm gone; I hope I leave the world a better place than when I got it.

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:28 am
by Sue U
That's fine, but what does that have to do with the divinity of Jesus, life after death or other tradtional Christian beliefs that might be called into question per the OP?

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:34 pm
by loCAtek
About the OP, I said;
loCAtek wrote:Very c :ok ool
...but you asked;
loCAtek wrote:
Sue U wrote:What do they matter?
Well, if you're concerned, with more than yourself after your a passing, :shrug

So, they matter, if you're concerned with more than yourself. I know many a person who 'turned their life around, thanks to Christianity/Spirituality'. Could they have done it otherwise? Perhaps, but in these cases, it was done for the sake of others; and that made it all the more meaningful.
You live according to what works for you; some people live according to what works for everyone.

"The needs of the many..." blah-blah-blah

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:55 pm
by Sue U
Your post is contradictory, at best, locatek. The OP describes how segments of the Dutch church are ready to abandon traditional Christian tenets including the divinity of Jesus, the existence of a supernatural god, and life after death/"heaven." (Presumably the immaculate conception/virgin birth, resurrection, and various reported miracles are also on the chopping block.)

To which you respond, "Very c :ok ool," which I take to mean that you approve of this radical shift in church doctrine.

I opined that the rejection of such beliefs does not make a religion "bleak," as suggested in the quoted story, and asked why they matter. You then replied that you thought these beliefs did matter "if you're concerned, with more than yourself after your a passing" -- which would seem to indicate you now think they are an important part of Christian religion or other people or an afterlife. I asked what you meant by that, and you responded with something about people turning their lives around for the sake of others with Christianity or spirituality, which as far as I can tell is a non sequitur.

So for the Christians (and anyone else) reading, I restate my question(s) and invite serious answers: Does the traditional dogma of Christianity actually matter in the conception, purpose and practice of the religion today? Does it have any personal importance to you? What difference does it make?

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:01 pm
by Crackpot
Sue U wrote: I don't think "jam tomorrow" can really be the whole of it; Meade and Crackpot are no fools, and I think both have made conscious decisions to embrace traditional (?) Christianity. I would really like to hear from both explaining why.
Well since you asked nicely... (I've made a habit of ignoring Gobs religious strawmen as I don't have wnough time to addressthem as fast as he coud set them up)

I think I can speak for Meade as well in this instance. The phrase "jam tomorrow" seems to have an implied labor/self denial component to it (even though it wasn't directly expressed in Gobs link) that separates it from a general hope for/belief in a better future. It is on that component that the desription fails, at least, as far as Evengelicals are concerned. Salvation (the Jam in this comparison) is a gift and therfore exists regardless of any works or restraint on the part of the believer. Works /restaint are seen by the beliver as a function of being saved rather than an action meriting future paymnet as thatwould negate the gift aspect of Salvation. It cannot be a gift if your actions make it owed to you.

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:15 am
by loCAtek
Sue U wrote:
To which you respond, "Very c :ok ool," which I take to mean that you approve of this radical shift in church doctrine.
I approve of what that church is offering it's congregation, in meeting their spiritual needs. Of course, some worshipers are happy with the traditional ways and I'm cool with that too.

Sue U wrote:



So for the Christians (and anyone else) reading, I restate my question(s) and invite serious answers: Does the traditional dogma of Christianity actually matter in the conception, purpose and practice of the religion today? Does it have any personal importance to you? What difference does it make?
The rote and ritual can still be comforting and uplifting; even it is not always 'new and different'. One of my neighbors, is a fairly regular church-goer who has told me, very sincerely, "It's an amazing thing when The Spirit descends on you." His type of worship is very real, albeit traditionally dogmatic. While a co-worker of mine is also a fairly regular church-goer, but it doesn't matter to her what church she attends to worship in. She'll go to a Catholic church one week and Baptist one the next; the important thing to her is that she practices her Christianity, there doesn't have to be a strict method.

All's good if folks are getting their individual spiritual needs met; they are part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs

Self-actualization (a term originated by Kurt Goldstein) is the instinctual need of humans to make the most of their unique abilities and to strive to be the best they can be. Maslow describes self-actualization as follows:

Self Actualization is the intrinsic growth of what is already in the organism, or more accurately, of what the organism is. (Psychological Review, 1949)

Maslow writes the following of self-actualizing people:

They embrace the facts and realities of the world (including themselves) rather than denying or avoiding them.
They are spontaneous in their ideas and actions.
They are creative.
They are interested in solving problems; this often includes the problems of others. Solving these problems is often a key focus in their lives.
They feel a closeness to other people, and generally appreciate life.
They have a system of morality that is fully internalized and independent of external authority.
They judge others without prejudice, in a way that can be termed objective.

In short, self-actualization is reaching one's fullest potential.
Self-transcendence Edit Self-transcendence sectionEdit

At the top of the triangle, self-transcendence is also sometimes referred to as spiritual needs.

Viktor Frankl expresses the relationship between self-actualization and self-transcendence in Man's Search for Meaning. He writes:

The true meaning of life is to be found in the world rather than within man or his own psyche, as though it were a closed system.... Human experience is essentially self-transcendence rather than self-actualization. Self-actualization is not a possible aim at all, for the simple reason that the more a man would strive for it, the more he would miss it.... In other words, self-actualization cannot be attained if it is made an end in itself, but only as a side effect of self-transcendence. (p.175)

Maslow believes that we should study and cultivate peak experiences as a way of providing a route to achieve personal growth, integration, and fulfillment. Peak experiences are unifying, and ego-transcending, bringing a sense of purpose to the individual and a sense of integration. Individuals most likely to have peak experiences are self-actualized, mature, healthy, and self-fulfilled. All individuals are capable of peak experiences. Those who do not have them somehow depress or deny them.

Maslow originally found the occurrence of peak experiences in individuals who were self-actualized, but later found that peak experiences happened to non-actualizers as well but not as often. In his The Farther Reaches of Human Nature (New York, 1971) he writes:

I have recently found it more and more useful to differentiate between two kinds of self-actualizing people, those who were clearly healthy, but with little or no experiences of transcendence, and those in whom transcendent experiencing was important and even central … It is unfortunate that I can no longer be theoretically neat at this level. I find not only self-actualizing persons who transcend, but also nonhealthy people, non-self-actualizers who have important transcendent experiences. It seems to me that I have found some degree of transcendence in many people other than self-actualizing ones as I have defined this term

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:24 am
by Gob
Crackpot wrote:[I've made a habit of ignoring Gobs religious strawmen as I don't have wnough time to address them as fast as he coud set them up)

Spoilsport. ;)

Re: Only the Dutch....

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:37 pm
by dgs49
If words mean anything, this church is anything but "Christian." Of course, to liberals, words mean whatever they want them to mean, so there is no arguing.

The idea that working for a better world is contrary to Christian beliefs is so totally divorced from reality that it is difficult to imagine any sentient being making that implication. Christian churches, agencies, and individuals are doing more for the betterment of humanity, both here and around the world, than any other association on the planet. This is true despite the wailing of nutball bigots like the person who refers to himself as "rubato," that the Church is causing misery by encouraging people to engage in reproductive activities responsibly. How dare them?

The theology and beliefs of Christianity have evolved over centuries, and have survived every form of attack known to man. Pity we Christians didn't have the enlightening insights of this nobody in the Netherlands from the very beginning. Would have saved us a lot of trouble.