You will learn tolerance respect and understanding!

[Big RR]

How authoritariand do you see them being Crackpot; the class istudying islam and, as part of that study, they were taking a trip to a mosque. One of more students refused to dress approrpiately and then made the stupid charge that they were being made to be moslem. The school said if the student did not attend a required function they would be marked truant. It does not appear that any real objection to the trip was made, only the silly one described here; indeed, the school was a catholic school and the student described was catholic, so I can't see how putting on a head covering and coveringone's arms and legs was somehow against her religion--one would think the authrorities at the school would knopw what the catholic church does and does not allow. What would you have had the school administration do?

And I am basing part of my opinion on the fact that this is a catholic run school (not a publicly funded one) and the students choose to come here (and pay for the privilege, I presume). No one is forcing anyone to do anything (and I might not be as tolerant if it were a publicly fnded school the student was forced to attend).

[Crackpot]

I see your point. I still feel the school overplayed their hand after the fact though.

[Big RR]

Sure, but then it's run by religious authorities from a particularly hierarchical and authroitarian religion; thar sort can't do anything but overplay their hand.

[tyro]

I have to agree with Big RR, the school arranged a field trip and if you aren’t there, then you are so noted, which is to say, truant.

That’s something else the Catholics are good at, record keeping.

Perhaps they could add a comment that the truancy was with parental consent.

[Big RR]

Actually, I think being exposed to other religions and beliefs is very good for everyone, especially younger people. In my church's confirmation program (done in 9th grade) the students are taken to attend services at a variety of other christian churches, as well as at a mosque, a synagogue, and a buddhist temple. We have generally gotten some of the clergy to meet with the students after the services as well to discuss their beliefs and some of the similarity and differences between those beliefs and ours. Many parents have also chosen to attend some or all of these outings.

We always tell them that they are guests in the other house of worship, and that they should dress appropriately and observe their customs respectfully. The idea is to expose them to what else exists in the realm of religion and to promote openess and understanding. Growing up in a time when catholics, at least catholic children, were prohibited from entering other houses of worship, and where even the adults sometimes did not show respect for other religions (my uncle's family was catholic and when his daughter (my cousin) got married in lutheran church his brothers and sisters came to the ceremony in sports clothes (at a time when adult men wore suits and ties to kids' parties), then went home and changed into suits or tuxedos for the reception), I have to commend this school (and maybe the RC religion) on being so open now that kids would be sent to attend a service at a mosque.

[Gob]

He added: 'There are two reasons for these visits. One is that the scheme of work in religious studies REQUIRES children to have knowledge and understanding of other world religions.

'The second is that the school is REQUIRED to promote tolerance respect and understanding. This is known as community cohesion.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0nql8YU47

But not tolerance respect and understanding for the person who does not wish to conform to muslim standards of dress, they get marked as absent.

[Sean]

I't just ain't a crucifix unless someone is nailed to it.

LMAO I bow to your pedantry CP...

[Big RR]

He added: 'There are two reasons for these visits. One is that the scheme of work in religious studies REQUIRES children to have knowledge and understanding of other world religions.

'The second is that the school is REQUIRED to promote tolerance respect and understanding. This is known as community cohesion.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0nql8YU47

But not tolerance respect and understanding for the person who does not wish to conform to muslim standards of dress, they get marked as absent.

Because they have chosen not to participate in a planned school activity; much as one would be marked absent from gym class if (s)he refused to wear gym clothes and shoes.

[rubato]

He added: 'There are two reasons for these visits. One is that the scheme of work in religious studies REQUIRES children to have knowledge and understanding of other world religions.

'The second is that the school is REQUIRED to promote tolerance respect and understanding. This is known as community cohesion.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0nql8YU47

But not tolerance respect and understanding for the person who does not wish to conform to muslim standards of dress, they get marked as absent.

The situation is not symmetrical.

The symmetrical situation is if Muslims were going into a Synagogue or a Catholic church they would be expected to show equal respect for an equal act by conforming to the standards of that denomination.

Saying that they are required to show respect for her by allowing her to enter their Mosque dressed (or behaving) in a way they find inappropriate is merely a way of telling them that they have no right to expect any standards at all.

It is a basic part of human education to understand that you ought to show respect for other's private spaces or ceremonies by dressing (and behaving) in a way which gives concrete expression to that respect. Being marked absent is the very mildest form of reminder of this fact.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

And I honestly don't see how covering someone's head, arms, and legs is somehow conforming to a "moslem standard of dress". They're not required to wear burkhas or veils or anything else, indeed, i seriously doubt there are any students who have never dressed in a similar way when the formailities demanded it.

[@meric@nwom@n]

I think what this boils down to is one culture is feeling pushed out for another. It is similar to things that are happening in the US with respect to immigrants, illegal and otherwise, and how we respond to them. People are sensitive to seeing their own culture being engulfed and will react accordingly even if irrationally.

[tyro]

Nail on head

[Guinevere]

No, there is no engulfing or pushing going on, what happened was a total and complete overreaction to something that was simple deceny.

Like BigRR's kids, I also had to go to a mosque, a greek orthodox service, and a synagogue during my confirmation class. The point was not even to learn to expect other religions, but to identify and discuss some of the common roots found in these religions. Dressing respectfully was probably not even an issue, because in those days we got dressed up on Sundays to go to church. Today, in the era of bellyshirts and flip-flops as everyday clothing, it was a reasonable reminder to act with some dignity.

(I know I'm getting old because I shuddered last weekend when I saw one of the teens doing the lesson reading wearing jeans and flipflops)

[Crackpot]

You do realize that this didn't happen in the US don't you?

[@meric@nwom@n]

No, there is no engulfing or pushing going on,

Arguable either way, but what I said is FEELS engulfed and pushed, and I feel this engulfing and pushing myself and assume others feel it too. Some people's response to this feeling is more reactionary than other's,

[Big RR]

Well you did say it was irrational @W, but what it appears to boil down to is basically this, someone feels there are too many dman moslems around and then questions why they have a right to say what people should wear in their houses of worship, along with condemning anyone for trying to reach and and bridge the cultures so people won't have these irtrational feelings.

So what's the answer? Or is there none?

By the way, since you raised it from a personal perspective, what "engulfing and pushing" do you feel?

[Gob]

I think what this boils down to is one culture is feeling pushed out for another. It is similar to things that are happening in the US with respect to immigrants, illegal and otherwise, and how we respond to them. People are sensitive to seeing their own culture being engulfed and will react accordingly even if irrationally.

Exactly right, and as I have highl9ighted here and at the other place, immigration in the small and swamped UK is a big issue.

It's not helped by the PC brigade who enforce "understanding" when it's a Muslim orthodoxy which "must be respected", and are the first to decry the native mores and culture as outdated and "racist":.

If the school had had the decency to say; "those who do not wish to attended could stay at the school and be marked present, (but not have completed) the unit", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Today Islam is the second largest religion in all four countries of the UK with recent estimates suggesting a total Muslim population as high as 2.4 million, mostly due to considerable immigration from former colonies from the 1950s. The growing numbers of Muslims has resulted in the establishment of more than 1500 mosques of which about 50-60% are affiliated with the Deobandi school of thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_t ... ed_Kingdom

[rubato]

I think what this boils down to is one culture is feeling pushed out for another. It is similar to things that are happening in the US with respect to immigrants, illegal and otherwise, and how we respond to them. People are sensitive to seeing their own culture being engulfed and will react accordingly even if irrationally.

Exactly right, and as I have highl9ighted here and at the other place, immigration in the small and swamped UK is a big issue.

It's not helped by the PC brigade who enforce "understanding" when it's a Muslim orthodoxy which "must be respected", and are the first to decry the native mores and culture as outdated and "racist":.

If the school had had the decency to say; "those who do not wish to attended could stay at the school and be marked present, (but not have completed) the unit", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Today Islam is the second largest religion in all four countries of the UK with recent estimates suggesting a total Muslim population as high as 2.4 million, mostly due to considerable immigration from former colonies from the 1950s. The growing numbers of Muslims has resulted in the establishment of more than 1500 mosques of which about 50-60% are affiliated with the Deobandi school of thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_t ... ed_Kingdom

The reason that there is less conflict with US Muslims than there is for UK or French Muslims is that here they are better integrated into American life.

A big part of that is showing ordinary respect.

Get the fuck over it; or die being an asshole. Those are your choices.

yrs,
rubato

[alice]

Actually, I think being exposed to other religions and beliefs is very good for everyone, especially younger people. In my church's confirmation program (done in 9th grade) the students are taken to attend services at a variety of other christian churches, as well as at a mosque, a synagogue, and a buddhist temple. We have generally gotten some of the clergy to meet with the students after the services as well to discuss their beliefs and some of the similarity and differences between those beliefs and ours. Many parents have also chosen to attend some or all of these outings.

We always tell them that they are guests in the other house of worship, and that they should dress appropriately and observe their customs respectfully. The idea is to expose them to what else exists in the realm of religion and to promote openess and understanding. Growing up in a time when catholics, at least catholic children, were prohibited from entering other houses of worship, and where even the adults sometimes did not show respect for other religions (my uncle's family was catholic and when his daughter (my cousin) got married in lutheran church his brothers and sisters came to the ceremony in sports clothes (at a time when adult men wore suits and ties to kids' parties), then went home and changed into suits or tuxedos for the reception), I have to commend this school (and maybe the RC religion) on being so open now that kids would be sent to attend a service at a mosque.

I couldn't agree more.
My grandmother was a presbyterian in a town in Australia that had a lot of English/Scottish migrants, and had two large churches - presbyterian and Catholic. I was amazed when I heard the stories, in later years, of Catholics refusing to go into Presbyterian Churches and vice versa - people missed weddings, christenings and funerals because the ceremony was being held in the 'opposition religion'. And I believe there were other divisions in the town because of the strong religious viewpoints. I think, or presume, that the barriers only started to fade over time as the younger ones started mixing, through school and social outings etc, with 'the opposition', and mixed-religion unions became increasingly common. The more people mix in friendly and respectful ways, the more tolerant people naturally become.
So if any church is trying to actively promote an awareness of other religions and a respect for their beliefs, that seems a very, very good start toward general tolerance.
I'm doubly impressed that it's a Catholic school doing it, because I always thought that they were a very intolerant and closed-minded organisation. It sure shows up my own ignorance.

And on a related note - I do worry about the large, radical muslim immigrants in Australia. They refuse to even attempt to integrate and basically demand everyone follow what they say 'or else', and create all sorts of issues and problems. But I also feel for the large, non-radical muslim population who are probably even more frustrated than us 'non-muslims' about it all. Not only do they not agree with the stance taken by the radicals, but they wear the hatred and abuse that the radicals help to create and to intensify among the general non-muslim population. It must be very hard, and I admire those non-radical muslims for trying to quietly go about their business, follow their religion without forcing it on others, and live peaceful lives. They are quietly trying follow what they believe while being 'hit from all sides'.

[Gob]

The reason that there is less conflict with US Muslims than there is for UK or French Muslims is that here they are better integrated into American life.

A big part of that is showing ordinary respect.

Respect has to be a two way street though., I have no doubt that US Muslims are more integrated due to the expectation that they will adopt and accept the dominant culture.

In the UK, and to a lesser degree Aus, the expectation is heavily weighted into the minority culture being accepted and no expectation the other way.