Report sexual abuse by priests, get castrated

[Scooter]

AMSTERDAM—The Dutch parliament on Tuesday called for an investigation into reports that Catholic clerics ordered castrations of young males in the 1950s in an attempt to cure their homosexuality.

Dutch MPs raised questions in parliament over a weekend report in Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad saying boys from a Catholic boarding school had been castrated.

“All these horrible reports strengthen me to call for a parliamentary investigation and perhaps even an inquiry,” Labour member of parliament Khadija Arib said in a debate.

The Dutch Catholic Church was willing to cooperate with an investigation to find out whether the media reports were true, a church spokesman said.

The NRC report cast doubt over the recent findings of an independent commission charged with investigating sex crimes within the church.

The Deetman Commision, set up by two Catholic bodies, the Conference of Bishops and the Dutch Religious Conference, concluded last year that tens of thousands of children had been abused by Catholic clergy in the Netherlands since 1945.

NRC said the commission had heard allegations of castrations but omitted the subject from its report due to insufficient evidence.

The newspaper said a young male named Henk Hethuis had been castrated on the instructions of Catholic priests in 1956 after he told police he was being sexually abused by priests.

Hethuis and possibly up to 10 others had been castrated and told it would “cure” their homosexuality, it said.

The Deetman Commission investigation said on Dec. 16 that tens of thousands of children had been sexually abused in Catholic orphanages, boarding schools and seminaries between 1945 and 1981, with offences ranging from very mild to serious, including rape.

It condemned what it called the church’s cover-up and culture of silence.

On Wednesday, the Liberal MP Van der Steur will propose a parliamentary hearing with the commission head, Wim Deetman, and others to discuss the castration allegations, Liberal spokeswoman Laura Huisman said.

link

Why instead didn't they think to routinely castrate RC priests upon ordination? It would have saved hundreds of thousands of victins from abuse.

[BoSoxGal]

I'm considering changing my signature line quote from "Republican" to "Catholic" - I won't attribute to Mencken, of course.

[rubato]

Any other organization with that history of systematic abuse and lies would have been thrown out of every civilized country long ago.

Why don't we start now?

yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

Hmmmmm.

Let's see...

There is no allegation that the priests themselves did the castrating, is there? Therefore, it is logical to assume that it was done by medical practitioners - most likely Medical Doctors. Don't doctors have a professional responsibility to, I don't know..."...do no harm..."?

Indeed, if a doctor (at least in the U.S.) were accused to carrying out such insane instructions, no matter who gave them, the doctor would be at least suspended from practice for malpractice. And certainly he would be subject to criminal prosecution. The DOCTOR makes this decision, not some (fucking) priest.

Just thinkin' out loud.

Not defending the priests, who deserved death, or worse. Just wondering why the priests are the only ones mentioned in the report. If doctors did the butchering they are at least as much to blame.

[Lord Jim]

If doctors did the butchering they are at least as much to blame.

That's a valid point, and what about the parents? (The article says it was a "boarding school" not an orphanage, so presumably these kids had parents)

[dgs49]

I missed that. Maybe the parents thought having a son who's a eunuch would be better than a queer.

Sheeeeeeit.

[Scooter]

While in the custody of the Catholic boarding school, the church would have had complete authority to consent to whatever medical procedures were deemed "necessary", so the parents would not have had to have been involved at all.

And I'm sure that doctors in Catholic psychiatric hospitals of the era had as much autonomy to decide whether or not to perform castrations as doctors working in Catholic hospitals today have to decide whether or not they will perform abortions.

[dgs49]

Scoots, you need to update yourself on the concept of "professional liability."

No licensed professional (MD, Lawyer, Dentist, etc) can avoid responsibility for an incompetent, criminal, or grossly unethical act by claiming s/he was instructed to do so by a client or employer. They are required to exercise their own independent judgment in all cases.

At least in this country. In Canada, maybe "professional" means something else. Or nothing at all.

As for abortions, any Catholic MD can perform abortions to their heart's consent, but not at a Catholic hospital. But very few doctors will perform these murders in any event, Catholic or not.

[rubato]

We have seen recently that doctors in Catholic hospitals in Spain stole thousands of newborn children from single women for decades to traffic to 'good catholic families' and then lied to the mothers and said their children had died. The argument that 'they just wouldn't do that' holds no water. With the urging and complicity of the Church they DID do that.


_____________________________________________-



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899

Spain's stolen babies and the families who lived a lie
By Katya Adler BBC News, Spain

Manoli Pagador recalls her first-born child being taken away
Continue reading the main story
In today's Magazine

Spanish society has been shaken by allegations of the theft and trafficking of thousands of babies by nuns, priests and doctors, which started under Franco and continued up to the 1990s.

I first met Manoli Pagador in Getafe, in a working-class suburb of Madrid. She was attending a meeting for people affected by the scandal Spaniards call "ninos robados" - stolen children.

She has three daughters and lots of grandchildren, but she has never got over the loss of her first-born - a son - nearly 40 years ago.

She had come to think she was crazy for believing he was alive, instead of dead and buried as hospital doctors had told her.

"Now," she said, gripping my hand tightly. "Look around the room at the other women here. All like me. The same background. The same experience. I'm not mad and my family finally believes me."
Continue reading the main story
Spain's stolen babies

How many? More than 900 cases are being investigated, but new cases are still coming to light - lawyers say the total could reach 300,000
How long? Over a period of 40-50 years, beginning under Franco, up to the 1990s
Who benefited? Initially the Fascists by bringing up the children of their enemies - later children were taken from parents judged to be morally or economically deficient and placed with approved Catholic, often childless, families
Why did it take so long to expose? The Church and medical profession are highly respected, and Spanish law does not require the biological mother's name on the birth certificate

In 1971 Manoli, who was 23 at the time and not long married, gave birth to what she was told was a healthy baby boy, but he was immediately taken away for what were called routine tests.

Nine interminable hours passed. "Then, a nun, who was also a nurse, coldly informed me that my baby had died," she says.

They would not let her have her son's body, nor would they tell her when the funeral would be.

Did she not think to question the hospital staff?

"Doctors, nuns?" she says, almost in horror. "I couldn't accuse them of lying. This was Franco's Spain. A dictatorship. Even now we Spaniards tend not to question authority."
... "
______________________-

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... g-scale-2/


The RC church is a corrupt institution. It should be shut down.


yrs,
rubato

[Scooter]

No licensed professional (MD, Lawyer, Dentist, etc) can avoid responsibility for an incompetent, criminal, or grossly unethical act by claiming s/he was instructed to do so by a client or employer.

I never claimed that they could. That has nothing to do with whether or not the employer (in this case, the Roman Catholic Church) bears responsiblity for such acts carried out within its institutions. Which it clearly does.

As for abortions, any Catholic MD can perform abortions to their heart's consent, but not at a Catholic hospital.

So within Catholic hospitals, the Church sets policy on which procedures may or may not be performed. So the Chruch bears responsibility for castrations performed in its hospitals. Thank you for agreeing with me.

But very few doctors will perform these murders in any event, Catholic or not.

Gunning down doctors in their homes and churches and firebombing their places of work has been a relatively effective strategy in dissuading them from providing necessary health care to their patients, I will give you that.

[dgs49]

A. I didn't absolve the Church or the priests from responsibility. I observed that the doctors who (presumably) performed the castrations were just as culpable.

B. Same answer.

C. Talk to a few pediatricians, as I have. They don't refrain from performing abortions because they are afraid of getting shot. They refrain because it is wrong, in all but the most extreme cases (likely death of the mother if she carries the baby to term). They take an oath to protect and preserve life, not destroy it.

[kristina]

C. Talk to a few pediatricians, as I have. They don't refrain from performing abortions because they are afraid of getting shot. They refrain because it is wrong, in all but the most extreme cases (likely death of the mother if she carries the baby to term). They take an oath to protect and preserve life, not destroy it.

Why on earth would a pediatrician be performing an abortion?

[Scooter]

It's just Dave proving that, yet again, he's completely lost the plot.

[rubato]

C. Talk to a few pediatricians, as I have. They don't refrain from performing abortions because they are afraid of getting shot. They refrain because it is wrong, in all but the most extreme cases (likely death of the mother if she carries the baby to term). They take an oath to protect and preserve life, not destroy it.

Why on earth would a pediatrician be performing an abortion?

Dave is not well acquainted with the facts.

yrs,
rubato

[BoSoxGal]

There are plenty of OB/GYNs who are pro-choice in accordance with the guidelines of Roe.

dgs, you do realize that pediatricians don't deliver babies - don't you?

[rubato]

In 1983 84% of practicing Ob/Gyns were pro-choice.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 09,8104728

yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

jesus fucking christ.

GYNECOLOGISTS!

OK? I met them socially, and they weren't wearing their ID badges. And just because they are "pro choice" politically doesn't mean they personally are willing to perform abortions.

[MajGenl.Meade]

J F C? come come dgs49 - that's low.

As to the rest of yez, the guy made a simple point that the priests were scum and deserve whatever they get (nothing at all by this late date I'd say; probably all dead) but that doctors also made the decision to perform the surgery (if the allegations are true)

And you get all over his case as if he was denying the holocaust or something. You could simply agree that yes, the doctors involved were also bad people doing evil and should have refused to perform such terrible activities - "ve voss only followink orders" was out of fashion by 1956

Terrible things were done in all "civilized" countries in the early parts of the 20th century in "treating" people who were perceived to be mentally ill - whether in Nazi Germany or the USA or England or Holland. It was not restricted to Catholic institutions; it was not restricted to Nazis - the common factor in these kinds of crimes is always doctors.

So it makes sense to condemn doctors (as a class) and let's abolish them - does it? Of course not. So note that it was a Catholic commission which revealed so many thousands of cases of abuse; it was that same commission that heard the allegations of castration (from whom I'd like to know) and could find no substantive evidence. Maybe such evidence exists and will be found. Perhaps these terrible things happend - but a little witch-hunt is not the appropriate response IMO

Meade

[dgs49]

If castrations took place, the evidence should be manifest.

As you have undoubtedly observed, Meade, I tend to react violently when people (including mainly scooter and rubato) imply - as they constantly do - that the Roman Catholic Church is institutionally responsible for all of the actions of each and every one of the perverts and pedophiles who, while constituting only a small percentage of the clergy, committed abhorrent acts while in positions of responsibility with the Church.

The news report prompting this thread states that there are some uncorroborated reports that "Catholic clerics ordered castrations of young males in the 1950s in an attempt to cure their homosexuality." If true - and it has not been established as a fact - it probably is the result of a single, misguided and probably well-intentioned priest, who requested that something be done by a medical practitioner. The facts, as they may be later established, speak for themselves.

But from this, we get the headline, "Report sexual abuse by priests, get castrated." One can easily infer why the scooter person has a bug up his ass about an organization in which he was apparently raised who considers his "lifestyle" to be worthy of eternal damnation. But I won't give him a pass when he spreads garbage like this.

Sorry if it makes me seem uncivil.

[Scooter]

I tend to react violently when people (including mainly scooter and rubato) imply - as they constantly do - that the Roman Catholic Church is institutionally responsible for all of the actions of each and every one of the perverts and pedophiles who, while constituting only a small percentage of the clergy, committed abhorrent acts while in positions of responsibility with the Church.

I don't "imply" it, I state it outright. The Roman Catholic Church is institutionally responsible for the acts of its employees, the clergy. How could it be otherwise? If the JetBlue pilot who just went ballistic had crashed that plane, JetBlue would have been responsible for and would have had to pay out huge sums in damages for the deaths of the passengers on that plane. Why would the Roman Catholic Church be any less responsible for the aberrant actions of its employees?

eta - Can you point to a single instance - here, the CSB, the DAF, anywhere you have seen post - where I have advocated for a lesser standard of culpability for ANY employer than I have for the Roman Catholic Church?









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Didn't think so.

Then where the fuck do you get off imputing motives to me? The only person in this discussion that is seeking to apply a different standard to the Roman Catholic Church is YOU, so don't project your need to swirl your tongue in the Pope's asshole on anyone else.