Core Values Disdained by Liberals

[dgs49]

From an opinion piece by John Hawkins (quote):

"1) Chastity: My friend Dawn Eden wrote an absolutely outstanding book called The Thrill Of The Chaste. It is about her decision to become chaste at 31, something that would have once prompted very few raised eyebrows in this country. Yet disturbingly, the whole idea of encouraging virginity and chastity has become so out of the ordinary that she managed to score numerous TV interviews out of it.

No society in history has ever been as bombarded with as much sexual imagery as modern day Americans have. Between music, TV, and the Internet, Americans are constantly being told that not only is sex outside of marriage permissible, you're a failure if you're not having as much sex as possible.

That mentality has serious repercussions.

"73 percent of black children, 53 percent of Latinos and 29 percent of white children are born to unwed mothers." This has devastating consequences since "children brought up in single-mother homes ‘are five times more likely to commit suicide, nine times more likely to drop out of high school, 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances, 14 times more likely to commit rape (for the boys), 20 times more likely to end up in prison, and 32 times more likely to run away from home.’" Solid statistics on the percentage of people who commit adultery are hard to come by, but most studies suggest that roughly 25% of men and 17% of women in marriages cheat on their spouses. In addition, 1 in 4 teenage girls have some form of STD and more than 50 million children have been slaughtered via abortion since 1973.

Even if you were to set moral concerns completely aside, it's clear that we're paying an INCREDIBLE price in this country because our culture promotes promiscuity instead of chastity.

2) Shame: One of the reasons that there is such an overemphasis on creating high self-esteem in our society is that it tends to be an antidote to shame. Admittedly, shame can be a very harmful emotion and psychologists have undoubtedly spent millions of man hours trying to get their clients over issues that they never should have been ashamed of in the first place.

That being said, judging by the way people behave, there are far too many people who don't feel shame when it's appropriate. If you don't believe that, look to most of the politicians in this country, their spokesmen, people taking handouts from their fellow citizens who don't feel bad about it, 26 year olds who still want to be on their parents' insurance, the cast of Jersey Shore, Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and innumerable other charlatans, leeches, and malcontents in American society.

Maybe we should stop worrying so much about low self-esteem and should start being more concerned with all the shameless people who have high self-esteem for no good reason along with a completely undeserved sense of entitlement.

3) Self-reliance: Our ancestors were some of the most self-reliant people who've ever walked the earth. They fought and defeated the super power of their day to become free, took on Spain, Mexico, and innumerable Indian tribes to acquire more land, explored a massive nation under brutally difficult conditions, and then civilized the country one wagon train at a time.

Meanwhile today, we have a record number of Americans receiving food stamps and disability payments, people are protesting in the streets because the government won't pay off their college loans for them, businesses want the government to bail them out, and many Americans would rather let future generations live in squalor rather than receive a few less dollars in Social Security and Medicare payments per month.

It's not the government's job to take care of you. It's YOUR job to take care of you. This may seem harsh and cruel to some people, but this is the philosophy responsible Americans already live their lives by. America already has far too many "takers" who have their hands out while it desperately needs more self-reliant producers.

4) Patriotism: "A thoughtful mind, when it sees a Nation's flag, sees not the flag only, but the Nation itself; and whatever may be its symbols, its insignia, he reads chiefly in the flag the Government, the principles, the truths, the history which belongs to the Nation that sets it forth." -- Henry Ward Beecher

One of the great ironies of our modern age is that the most damaging and vicious anti-American propaganda isn't supplied by Al-Qaeda, Cuba, China, Iran or any other foreign enemy. Believe it or not, the most skilled purveyors of anti-American hatred are prominent Americans who are making a wonderful living here teaching others to despise the nation where they became successful.

This is a great tragedy because if you're an American, this nation is the largest group of people you can belong to that has any genuine concern about your welfare. When Americans have a hard time, some people in other nations are happy about it, some generally wish us well, but the only people who deeply care what happens to us are other Americans. Keep in mind that we’re still hunting down and killing Al-Qaeda for what it did more than a decade ago on 9/11. Yes, there are some other countries helping a little bit, but they're doing it to stay on our good side, not because any of them want justice for the Americans who were killed. Only Americans truly care about that because it was our people who were killed.

American citizenship is a precious thing. Giving future generations the same great opportunities we've had growing up is extremely important. It's no surprise that so many Americans don't seem to understand that any more since we spend more time talking up global warming and teaching gay marriage propaganda to kids than explaining to them the importance of loving their own country.


[emphasis added]

[Grim Reaper]

You're not even trying anymore.

[Big RR]

Come on GR, I think we all agree that if only unamrried people would stop screwing, have extremely low self esteem, and believe my country right or wrong (daring not to challenge or criticize anything the government does, enless it is directed at helping people, because they then cease to be self reliant), we'd all be better off. How can such sage opinions be disputed?

[Econoline]

Yet another post from a conservative, telling us liberals what (he thinks) liberals believe.

[Lord Jim]

Yet another post from a conservative, telling us liberals what (he thinks) liberals believe.

Well, here's at least one liberal telling us what he believes:

Liberals delay marriage and starting families until they are financially secure and more emotionally mature and thus have very low divorce rates and low rates of single parent households.

Conservatives deprive their daughters of knowledge of contraception and thus have more 'shotgun' weddings followed by divorces.:

Single parents are the products of Conservative governments. Overwhelmingly.
yrs,
rubato

Which of course makes this:

Large racial differences remain: 73 percent of black children are born outside marriage, compared with 53 percent of Latinos and 29 percent of whites.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/fo ... wanted=all

A logical impossibility, since African Americans vote 90% plus Democratic....which must mean that "they delay marriage and starting families until they are financially secure and more emotionally mature and thus have very low divorce rates and low rates of single parent households."

I mean who are you going to believe? A cheesy outfit like The National Center for Health Statistics, or an unimpeachable source with a sterling record for accuracy like rube?

[rubato]

The black community vote Democratic in elections but are known to be conservative socially.

"black" is not a governmental unit. "State" is. So if one wished to know the difference in outcomes of government one would look at state by state data.

yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

"conservative socially" = favor ballroom dancing?

Socially conservative people don't have overwhelmingly bastard children.

[Lord Jim]

"black" is not a governmental unit. "State" is. So if one wished to know the difference in outcomes of government one would look at state by state data.

And if one wished to be able to draw any definitive conclusions from that data, one would need to isolate the variable as the cause....

Which of course, you have never done, and cannot do.....This "conservative government creates all bad things" mindless mantra that you like to repeat is nothing but your usual vacuous ass gas....

Gee, you would think a real scientist would know about that isolate the variable thingy....

But of course that's not something I would expect you to understand....

[rubato]

Oh look, we can see state by state data! The lowest rates of teen pregnancy are in liberal states, the highest rates are in Conservative ones. You can find similar data for unwed motherhood by state.



http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... ortc=1&o=a


Rank
(1=low | 51=high) Teen Birth Rate per 1,000
United States 34.3
1. New Hampshire 15.7 Liberal
2. Massachusetts 17.1 Liberal
3. Vermont 17.9Liberal
4. Connecticut 18.9Liberal
5. New Jersey 20.3Liberal
6. Maine 21.4Liberal
7. Rhode Island 22.3Liberal
8. Minnesota 22.5Liberal
9. New York 22.6Liberal
10. Wisconsin 26.2Liberal
11. Washington 26.7
12. Pennsylvania 27.0
13. Maryland 27.2
14. Virginia 27.4
15. Utah 27.9
16. Oregon 28.1
17. Iowa 28.6
18. North Dakota 28.8
19. Michigan 30.1
20. Delaware 30.5
21. Nebraska 31.1
22. California 31.5
23. Florida 32.0
24. Hawaii 32.5
25. Idaho 33.0
25. Illinois 33.0
27. Colorado 33.4
28. Ohio 34.2
29. South Dakota 34.9
30. Montana 35.0
31. Missouri 37.1
32. Indiana 37.3
33. Alaska 38.3
33. North Carolina 38.3
35. Nevada 38.6
36. Wyoming 39.0
37. Kansas 39.2
38. Georgia 41.4Conservative
39. Arizona 42.4 Conservative
40. South Carolina 42.5 Conservative
41. Tennessee 43.2Conservative
42. Alabama 43.6Conservative
43. West Virginia 44.8Conservative
44. District of Columbia 45.4 not a state
45. Kentucky 46.2Conservative
46. Louisiana 47.7Conservative
47. Oklahoma 50.4Conservative
48. Texas 52.2Conservative
49. Arkansas 52.5Conservative
50. New Mexico 52.9Conservative
51. Mississippi 55.0Conservative

[rubato]

The trend is the same as for teen pregnancy (no surprise there) but you will have to compile it yourself. Although there is zero chance that any of our local conservative assholes will ever care enough about the truth to do so:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_01.pdf

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

LOL

I don't know why I'm bothering to repeat this , given how utterly impervious to learning anything you are, but it has been pointed out to you before, (and shown with statistics and links just like yours) that with few exceptions, those figures relating to teen pregnancy, (and most of the other social ills you're so fond of blaming on conservatives) track by state with other factors besides which party happens to control the Governor's Mansion....

Like which states have the highest percentage of minorities in their population...

Again, as I have said in the past, I do not point this out to try and make any causal relationship claims on that basis; merely to show how bogus rube's causal relationship claims are; the real reasons for social problems like teen pregnancy are far more complex, and do not lend themselves to the sort of simplistic, one-size-fits-all explanations that intellectually stunted, prejudice driven folks like rube (and his counterparts on the right) like to embrace.

It truly astonishes me that a man who claims to be a scientist could be so completely oblivious to such a fundamental scientific principle as the need to isolate a variable in order to provide a proof for causation...

Merely reposting the same links over and over that in no way provide this proof, only shows over and over that you simply do not understand the concept....

You have less in common with being a scientist than I have in common with being a trapeze artist.....

[rubato]

An interview with one of the authors of "Red Families vs Blue Families". You can buy a copy at Powell's. The data is referenced in the book or you can do your own research. I have published here data which supports their statements many times over the years. None of the conservatives on this board cares about basing opinions on facts so I will not repeat myself today.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =126653602



"...
The book is "Red Families v. Blue Families" and its co-author, June Carbone, a professor of law at the University of Missouri, Kansas City, is with me.

Welcome.

Professor JUNE CARBONE (Co-Author, "Red Families v. Blue Families): Delighted to be here.

RAZ: In the book, you talk about the blue family system and the red family systems. Define the terms here. What's the blue family system, and what's the red family system?

Prof. CARBONE: The single biggest difference between the two is the notion of age of marriage or childbearing. We see this blue system as one that says grow up first, be established, be financially sound, then have a family. The red family system says it's very important to avoid too much premarital sexuality. So you're going to move lockstep from school into employment and marriage fairly soon. You're not going to wait until you're fully established. You're going to get married and have children younger.

RAZ: And now, you found that the lowest divorce rates in the country tend to be in blue states. The highest divorce rates tend to be in states that voted - so-called red states that voted Republican in 2004, 2008. I think a lot of people would be surprised by that. It seems to suggest that places that are more politically left of center tend to reflect what we might regard as having more traditional family values.

Prof. CARBONE: We were astonished to find how closely the vote, especially in 2004, to a strong degree in 2008, maps on to family structure. Here's the thing that's happened in the blue world. What you have is, again, a system, far more independence. And we find that people who do marry later late 20s, early 30s you've got a pretty good sense who's going to be successful and stable and a good marriage partner at 30. You're still guessing at 22.

So one of the things that's happened is with a later average age of marriage, successful people are more likely to marry other successful people. And what you're finding is the group that is getting married at that later age knows what they're doing.

RAZ: Why do you think the data is so different based on the political orientation of a state?

Prof. CARBONE: When we looked at the numbers and we said, where is the world changing? If we wanted to know whether a state was shifting from Republican to Democratic - states like Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, New Hampshire is very interesting in this regard, though it happened earlier - where you see a big drop in teen pregnancies, those states are shifting from being more Republican to more Democratic.

When you then ask the question, who's most anxious about family values? You've got well, I mentioned the higher divorce rates. We looked at the numbers in the '90s, for college graduates, divorce rates were falling sharply. For the country as a whole, divorce rates were plateauing, albeit at high levels. But for the middle group in the country, they were continuing to rise.

When we were looking at non-marital birth rates for whites, a big change in the '90s was a big increase in the non-marital birth rates, white women between the ages of 20, 24. And that's an age where in small communities, marriage typically happened - where the time for family formation is the early 20s, not the late 20s, and the non-marital birth rates were jumping.

When you put those two things together - higher non-marital birth rates for whites and higher divorce rates - and you say, where are anxieties about those trends greatest? It's in Sarah Palin's America.

RAZ: That's June Carbone. She's the co-author of the book "Red Families v. Blue Families." She also teaches law at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. And she joined me from there.

June Carbone, thanks so much.
... "

[rubato]

The message of the book is basically a positive one; that the areas of the country with rising divorce and high teen pregnancy can change this by being accepting that it is unrealistic to expect people, on the whole, to delay having sex into their middle or late 20s and that providing birth control and the knowledge of how to use to to women starting at puberty prevents teen pregnancy.

Or you can pretend the data does not exist and everything will continue to get worse in Conservative America.

yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

Ahem.

As always, rubato misses the entire point in his relentless campaign to "prove " what is manifestly false.

TEEN pregnancy is not an issue. It is totally irrelevant. The relevant issue is bastardy - armies of children born to women who are unmarried and do not have the wherewithal to nurture a child in our time and place.

I wonder if Ruby would ever be interested in checking out the differences in "outcomes" between children born to 19-year-old married women and children born to 22-year-old single women. Probably not, since it would refute his main point.

And as for divorce statistics, a subculture in which 70% of the offspring are born to UNMARRIED women really shouldn't have much of a problem with a high divorce rate, eh? Since the people don't get fucking married in the first place!

And very few people are recommending that ADULTS "delay having sex into their middle or late 20s," merely that they be prudent about whom they copulate with, and, if unmarried, take appropriate precautions to avoid becoming pregnant.

People such as the rube appear to believe that pregnancy is caused by magic or some germ in the air, and thus there is no reason to hold people accountable when they - Oops! - have a little bastard kid.

[Lord Jim]

Rube, quoting somebody else with an agenda making the same mistake you've made of choosing to declare one commonality as a cause while ignoring and not accounting for others that track just as well doesn't magically turn the chicken shit into chicken salad....

The person you quoted is doing the same bullshit thing you're doing; taking one set of statistics, ignoring all the other relevant ones, and then declaring that the one set somehow "proves" their theory...

It's either ignorant or intellectually dishonest. (In your case, it's probably both) there's zero proof here; it's just agenda driven speculation based on incomplete data dressed up to look like legitimate social science analysis...

In other words, complete crap.

Apparently you just don't understand the concept of isolating the variable. I've tried to explain it to you, but you're not going to listen to me....

Try asking one of the real scientists where you work; they should be able to explain it to you. In fact if there any high school biology or chemistry students in your neighborhood, they should have no trouble with it either.

[Sean]

It fascinates me as an onlooker to see how divisive and partisan US politics is. I've lived in three very different countries and I've never seen anything even close to it! I think that some of you would vote for a zombie Hitler just because he was the leader of your preferred party.

"At least he's not a Republican/Democrat (delete as applicable)!"

[Scooter]

"73 percent of black children, 53 percent of Latinos and 29 percent of white children are born to unwed mothers." This has devastating consequences since "children brought up in single-mother homes ‘are five times more likely to commit suicide, nine times more likely to drop out of high school, 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances, 14 times more likely to commit rape (for the boys), 20 times more likely to end up in prison, and 32 times more likely to run away from home.’"

And once you control for income and education, those differences disappear.

[rubato]

The data proves that state-level differences in social attitudes have a large influence on outcomes.

LJ proves that conservatives do not mind making bad decisions and having bad outcomes and will prefer to make them indefinitely rather than admit their policies do not work.

Liberals believe that evolution is the unifying theory in biology and that global climate change is happening. Conservatives deny science when it contradicts their ideology. The latter group has the worst outcomes in all categories.

Liberals believe that humans have a sex drive and telling them that they don't is ineffective. Conservatives tell them that they don't have a sex drive and want to punish them when their behavior contradicts crackpot ideology.

Denying science is a Conservative Family Value; it leads to poverty.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

I would say that a person's actual values are those they practice. And conservative values by that standard are to deny reality and make more teen pregnancies, divorces, and unwed mothers.

To a minimally intelligent person I would say "you have to accept the data sooner or later" but a conservative can simply deny facts and make up excuses for their failure indefinately; or say "It's god's will".

"...

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politi ... ates/1735/

In 2009, a landmark study found a strong correlation between religion and teen pregnancy. The CDC's newest data suggests not much has changed. Teen pregnancy closely follows the contours of America's Bible belt, according to the map (above) from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC).

There is good news: teen births are at their lowest level in more than 60 years (10 percent lower than 2009, 43 percent below their peak in 1970). But the geographic variation is substantial.

Teen birthrates are highest in Texas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Arkansas, and New Mexico,. There are slightly lower concentrations in the neighboring states of Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Arizona. New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut, and Massachusetts have the lowest rates of teen births.

What factors lie behind this geographic pattern?

With the steady statistical hand of my Martin Prosperity Institute colleague Charlotta Mellander, I took a quick look. Of course, the correlations we found are not the same thing as causation. Other factors we have not considered may come into play.

Teenage births remain high in more religious states. The correlation between teenage birthrates and the percentage of adults who say they are “very religious” is considerable (.69). The 2009 study posited that attitudes toward contraception play a significant role, noting that "religious communities in the U.S. are more successful in discouraging the use of contraception among their teenagers than they are in discouraging sexual intercourse itself."

Teen birthrates also hew closely to America’s political divide. They are substantially higher in conservative states that voted for McCain in 2008 (with a correlation of .65) and negatively correlated with states that voted for Obama (-.62).

Class plays a substantial role as well. Teen births are negatively associated with average state income (-.62), the share of the workforce in knowledge, professional, and creative class jobs (-.61), and especially with the share of adults who are college graduates (-.76). Conversely, teen birthrates are higher in more working class states (with a positive correlation of .58).

Overall, teen birthrates remain highest in America’s most religious, politically conservative and blue-collar states.

... "

yrs,
rubato

[Sue U]

Teen birthrates are highest in Texas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Arkansas, and New Mexico,. There are slightly lower concentrations in the neighboring states of Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Arizona. New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut, and Massachusetts have the lowest rates of teen births.

Hmm, warm Southern states v. cool New England states. I'm gonna go with weather -- particularly the lack of a proper winter.