Plan B Forum

The first minute, applies to each and every philosphy/belief/faith; every ism and ist



...which is scientific, and sound logic.

Mr. DeGrasse's first impression of;





...sounds like what LJ has been saying. The people who disagree with the new atheist movement are not 'stupid', nor less intelligent; for whatever thier personal reasons, they simply disagree with it as Prof. DeGrasse does. The worst you could call them perhaps, is uneducated, and I appreciate a good educator with real patience and respect towards those he wishes to teach. A teacher in a classroom who routinely called a student 'stupid', would not be considered a good teacher at all; as we know: there are no bad students, only bad teachers.

loCAtek wrote:...as we know: there are no bad students, only bad teachers.

Absolute horseshit!

In what way? Why do you feel that's 'horseshit'?

BTW

Study: Good Teachers Have ‘Profound Effect’ on Students

The average effect of one teacher on a single student is modest. All else equal, a student with an excellent teacher would be 0.5 percent more likely to attend college. However, if you replaced a poor teacher with an average one would raise a single classroom’s lifetime earnings by about $266,000, the economists estimate.

I'm not arguing the fact that there are good and bad teachers. I am taking exception to the inane statement that there are no bad students.

That is horseshit.

What do you consider to be a bad student?

Are you serious?

Quite.

I may not agree with you, but then again, I may.

So I ask, so as not to assume.

Right then...

First of all, I should point out that is not an opinion, the following is based on my years as a teacher, both one on one and classroom based.

To be considered a good student, one must first be receptive to being taught. It is not possible to teach somebody who, for whatever reason, refuses to be taught.

A good student puts in the effort, a bad student doesn't. It takes both a good teacher and a good student to create a good learning experience.

I think I'm stating the bleeding obvious here though...

You can lead a kid to knowledge but you can't make him think...

Sean, I see your point, and my roommate agrees with you, she's also a teacher. However, perhaps that phrase is too over simplified, and I accidently offered a false choice[my bad]; that either the teacher or the student, had to be 'bad'. What's clear now is you're describing a student who's not motivated, and not a bad student per se. That lack of motivation could have been for any number of reasons, or circumstances in his/her life, so that doesn't make the teacher 'bad'.
Nate Fisher, that Black comedian, whom I like so much; has said that he was a slow student himself, and was having a lot of trouble learning to read as a kid. Judging from the childhood he describes growing up, it sounds like he was on the receiving end of a lot of bullying; much from his own family, because he was small and light-skinned, or as he puts it, "Three shades short of a felony." His mother though, was determined to believe in him; so she brought him
Hooked on Phonics® (It worked for him!) and tutered Nate until he finally grasped literacy. Even so, he continued to take out his anger, beginning to bully other kids and getting into a lot of fights; which resulted in him switching schools three times. The third time, he decided he was going to take advatage of this fresh start, and do right by his mama. Nate then tried to calm down, and pay attention to his studies.
Tragically, that year his mother fell ill, and passed away; causing Nate to act out in even greater ways and be a 'bad student' even worse then before.
Fortunately, while he didn't go to college, he did later mature and capitalize on his quick wit, sharp story-telling abilities and a window to the world on YouTube.

...now, just imagine if a smart guy like that could have gotten a decent education and encouragement; he'd be another Neil deGrasse Tyson!


I have a point to all this- I believe this is what Prof. Tyson was trying to say here;

loCAtek wrote:Prof. Tyson's first impression of;

...as an educator, you have to strive to motivate students to learn, would you agree? As he said, "there has to be an act of persuasion". Meanwhile, "barbed comments" how ever articulate, aren't effective at motivation, and persuation. They're used in Sports and the military, in order to get people to act ...but not to think. Otherwise, they're just insults and bullying.

...and bullying, as said above, leads to 'bad students', who act out against it.

loCAtek wrote:Sean, I see your point, and my roommate agrees with you, she's also a teacher. However, perhaps that phrase is too over simplified, and I accidently offered a false choice[my bad]; that either the teacher or the student, had to be 'bad'.

No you didn't, you clearly stated that there was no such thing as a bad student.

What's clear now is you're describing a student who's not motivated, and not a bad student per se. That lack of motivation could have been for any number of reasons, or circumstances in his/her life, so that doesn't make the teacher 'bad'.

I am not talking about motivation. Motivation is a completely different matter. I am talking about students who, for whatever reason, do not WANT to learn. These students are often disruptive and can spoil the experience of better students. Trust me, if a 16 yr old has decided that he doesn't want to learn and that he'd rather act like a twat not even Robin Williams could do anything about that!

...as an educator, you have to strive to motivate students to learn, would you agree? As he said, "there has to be an act of persuasion". Meanwhile, "barbed comments" how ever articulate, aren't effective at motivation, and persuation. They're used in Sports and the military, in order to get people to act ...but not to think. Otherwise, they're just insults and bullying.

...and bullying, as said above, leads to 'bad students', who act out against it.

Why wouldn't I agree with motivating students? Also, why are you talking about bullying tactics? You don't need to be an educator to know that they are not effective as motivational tools. Why bring it up? Where are you going with that?

Sean wrote: No you didn't, you clearly stated that there was no such thing as a bad student.

I clearly stated a Cliché, which I also retracted.

What's clear now is you're describing a student who's not motivated, and not a bad student per se. That lack of motivation could have been for any number of reasons, or circumstances in his/her life, so that doesn't make the teacher 'bad'.

Sean wrote: I am not talking about motivation. Motivation is a completely different matter. I am talking about students who, for whatever reason, do not WANT to learn. These students are often disruptive and can spoil the experience of better students. Trust me, if a 16 yr old has decided that he doesn't want to learn and that he'd rather act like a twat not even Robin Williams could do anything about that!

I am. Have you thought about why a student would decide to be disruptive and not want to learn? What would be thier motivation for doing so?

A: Lack of Encouragement; insufficient persuasion and/or hostile environment to learning AKA Bullying.

Sean wrote:

...as an educator, you have to strive to motivate students to learn, would you agree? As he said, "there has to be an act of persuasion". Meanwhile, "barbed comments" how ever articulate, aren't effective at motivation, and persuation. They're used in Sports and the military, in order to get people to act ...but not to think. Otherwise, they're just insults and bullying.

...and bullying, as said above, leads to 'bad students', who act out against it.

Why wouldn't I agree with motivating students? Also, why are you talking about bullying tactics? You don't need to be an educator to know that they are not effective as motivational tools. Why bring it up? Where are you going with that?

The New Atheist movement with Dawkins behind it, mostly uses bullying tactics, and not genuinely educational ones, as observed/stated by educator Prof. Tyson. That's counterproductive, and in their own terms 'stupid'.

Carl Sagan, another highly intelligent man said:

"An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid."

loCAtek wrote:

Sean wrote: No you didn't, you clearly stated that there was no such thing as a bad student.

I clearly stated a Cliché, which I also retracted.

No you didn't. You made a statement which you have not retracted, only tried to fudge into something different. Don't try to take me for a fool, it would be unwise.

I am not talking about motivation. Motivation is a completely different matter. I am talking about students who, for whatever reason, do not WANT to learn. These students are often disruptive and can spoil the experience of better students. Trust me, if a 16 yr old has decided that he doesn't want to learn and that he'd rather act like a twat not even Robin Williams could do anything about that!

I am. Have you thought about why a student would decide to be disruptive and not want to learn? What would be thier motivation for doing so?

A: Lack of Encouragement; insufficient persuasion and/or hostile environment to learning AKA Bullying.

So you're back to saying that it is always the teacher's rather than the student's fault? I though you had retracted that... Please do try and keep up! You'll get much more out of it if you pay attention to your own posts.*

You seem to believe me that a lack of motivation on the student's part (which you would have us believe is always the teacher's fault) is the only ever reason for disruptive behaviour and a lack of learning. That is incredibly naive. You should not restrict your own education on this matter to Dead Poet's Society and Dangerous Minds. Talk to your roommate. She seems to be a lot more clued up on this than you.**

Here's another little tip for you. An untrained person who believes that they are more of an authority on a given subject than somebody who has had years of training and experience in said subject could also be considered a bad student...

* A little motivation for you there

** More motivation and not a shred of bullying in sight!

Sean wrote:

loCAtek wrote:
I clearly stated a Cliché, which I also retracted.

No you didn't. You made a statement which you have not retracted, only tried to fudge into something different. Don't try to take me for a fool, it would be unwise.

What part of [My bad] did you not understand?

Sean wrote: I am not talking about motivation. Motivation is a completely different matter. I am talking about students who, for whatever reason, do not WANT to learn. These students are often disruptive and can spoil the experience of better students. Trust me, if a 16 yr old has decided that he doesn't want to learn and that he'd rather act like a twat not even Robin Williams could do anything about that!

I am. Have you thought about why a student would decide to be disruptive and not want to learn? What would be thier motivation for doing so?

A: Lack of Encouragement; insufficient persuasion and/or hostile environment to learning AKA Bullying.

So you're back to saying that it is always the teacher's rather than the student's fault? I though you had retracted that...

Strawman, I didn't say it was the teacher's fault in the first place.

Sean wrote: You seem to believe me that a lack of motivation on the student's part (which you would have us believe is always the teacher's fault)[Strawman] is the only ever reason for disruptive behaviour and a lack of learning.

Nope I said;

loCatek wrote:That lack of motivation could have been for any number of reasons, or circumstances in his/her life, so that doesn't make the teacher 'bad'.

...or at fault.


Pls, see the Nathan Fisher analogy posted earlier, which had nothing to do with teachers being at fault.

Sean wrote:Context. All is context...

loCAtek wrote:What part of [My bad] did you not understand?

The part where you never actually said it.

Strawman, I didn't say it was the teacher's fault in the first place.

Really?

A: Lack of Encouragement; insufficient persuasion and/or hostile environment to learning AKA Bullying

Those are the reasons you gave for the lack of student motivation. If not the teacher, who else would you suggest could be responsible for these?
BTW, you may want to look up the definition of words like 'strawman' before you try using them.

Sean wrote: You seem to believe me that a lack of motivation on the student's part (which you would have us believe is always the teacher's fault)[Strawman] is the only ever reason for disruptive behaviour and a lack of learning.

Nope I said;

loCatek wrote:That lack of motivation could have been for any number of reasons, or circumstances in his/her life, so that doesn't make the teacher 'bad'.

...or at fault.

Well putting that alongside the list I quoted above, it seems that you don't even agree with yourself now!

loCatek wrote:

Sean wrote:Context. All is context...

The saddest part is that you fail to see the irony in you posting that quote* from me completely out of context.

*Which is from a completely different thread but hey-ho... I've long ago given up hope of you showing any form of etiquette. You are too fucked up for that!