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Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:16 pm
by Gob
It is said that the best way to get a bad law overturned is to enforce it. When people see its consequences, the truism goes, they will be so appalled that public support for change will build up an unstoppable head of steam.

The death of Savita Halappanavar might do just that for the women of Ireland.

Halappanavar, 31, was 17 weeks pregnant with her first, much-wanted baby when she went to Galway's University College Hospital in pain. Doctors told her that her cervix had opened and amniotic fluid was leaking. Her pregnancy was ending and there was no hope for the child.

Image
"One person's religious freedom must end where it hurts another's right to health or happiness - or, as in [Savita] Halappanava's case, the right to life itself." Photo: AP

Over the next three days, in agonising pain, Halappanavar repeatedly begged for an abortion to get the miscarriage over quickly. Could doctors not induce the labour so she could give birth sooner?

According to her husband, Praveen, the consultant told them this was not possible because there was still a foetal heartbeat and ''this is a Catholic country''.

That heartbeat stopped after four days and only then was Halappanavar taken to have the contents of her womb removed. She developed septicaemia, or blood poisoning, and was dead three days later.

Obstetrics 101 tells us that sepsis is more likely if the mother's membranes stay ruptured for a long time, or if she retains ''products'' in her womb after miscarriage, termination or delivery. A dilated cervix is like a open wound.

Halappanavar's homeland of India is aghast and there have been diplomatic flurries of concern. Three separate inquiries are under way into the catastrophe and no doubt there will be findings as to whether or not medical negligence was a factor.

That was a straw eagerly clutched by some defenders of the Irish Catholic Church after the scalding rage that erupted over Halappanavar's case.

''It has nothing to do with the church,'' one deeply Catholic woman assured me sharply. ''It sounds like medical negligence. And, anyway, it happened in a state hospital.''

She was channelling Pontius Pilate washing blood from his hands. In Ireland, politics is deeply intertwined with Catholic doctrine and the institutional power of the church - and the church's tough stance against abortion has protected a near total ban on the procedure.

Ireland still has on its books 1861 legislation that makes it a crime to procure a miscarriage. A 1983 amendment to the constitution acknowledges the right to life of the unborn child but is also meant to give equal right to the life of the mother.

In 1992, Ireland's Supreme Court was forced to interpret that during the case of X, a suicidal 14-year-old rape victim. The government was trying to stop her going to Britain to abort the pregnancy that had resulted from the rape. The court ruled that if there was a substantial risk to the mother's life - her life, but not her health - it would be lawful to terminate. Irish governments have prevented that judgment from coming into effect by failing to pass laws that would affirm and clarify it.

More than 4000 Irish women each year go to Britain to end pregnancies, according to British health statistics, with almost one in 10 Irish pregnancies ending in British abortion clinics. An unknown number go to other European countries. ''Abortion tourism'', they call it.

Years ago, it could be argued that the influence of church doctrine on the Irish government was democratic - the majority believed in Catholic teachings, so it was fair enough that they were reflected in Irish law and that church leaders were consulted about planned legislation.

But that is no longer the case. A poll in The Irish Times found that 77 per cent now believe abortion should be permitted in some circumstances. Other polls have found the hold of the church is weakening more generally - 77 per cent of Irish now think there should be female priests, 90 per cent want married priests and 70 per cent say the church's teachings on sexuality are not relevant to them at all.

That is not discouraging to Cardinal Sean Brady, the head of the Irish church, who announced in August that he would promote a lobbying campaign involving ministers and MPs to oppose any change over abortion.

Australia's cardinal, George Pell, has expressed concern that the furore over child abuse has scapegoated the Catholic Church. The Irish pro-choice movement is not scapegoating the Catholic Church but holding it up to modern accountability.

All the major religions are guilty of some form of systematic abuse of women. Victims of rape have been executed in the name of Islam; Hinduism abandons widows to homelessness; Orthodox Jews in Israel spit on women they deem immodest and try to force women to sit down the back of buses.

The fact that a religion invokes God, claims to be a path to transcendence and offers society many benefits does not exempt it from outside scrutiny of beliefs that cause harm.

Catholic Ireland's judge is likely to be the European Court of Human Rights, which criticised the government two years ago for not having clarified the Supreme Court ruling. The Irish government then set up an expert panel to report to its health minister and the government has said it will respond at the end of this month.

This will be a moment of truth for the Republic of Ireland.

Many old-time Irish republicans believed the country couldn't come of age until it was united, with Ulster returning to the national fold. But perhaps a more important coming of age involves Ireland standing tall as a secular state where civil law can differ from, and override, canon law.

One person's religious freedom must end where it hurts another's right to health or happiness - or, as in Halappanavar's case, the right to life itself. As protesters outside the Irish Parliament last week pointed out, Halappanavar had a heartbeat, too.

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:47 am
by TPFKA@W
Just disgusting beyond words. :arg

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:32 am
by dgs49
Isn't it a marvel that of the millions of elective abortions that have been performed in the U.S. over the past thirty years or so, there hasn't been a single death of the.....oh, I don't know what to call her.....can't be "mother," of course, because it was just a lump of tissue, after all. Anyway, not a single loss of life (other than the BABIES' lives, of course, but they don't count) due to an elective abortion. Unbelievable statistic, what?

I've never actually read that statistic, but I do INFER it from the lack of coverage. Because if this ONE FUCKING WOMAN IN IRELAND died because she couldn't get an abortion, and it is so newsworthy, and the POINT of this coverage is how HARMFUL it is that Ireland has legally prohibited aborions, then OBVIOUSLY, the choice to have an abortion must be perfectly safe. Ergo, NO DEATHS due to abortion.

And even more importantly, think of all the fucking Irishmen who are walking around today for no other reason than the regressive policies of their atavistic government. Policies that FORCED their unfortunate mothers to bear them. How many of them would NOT EXIST had their government been more "enlightened"? It is an ongoing tragedy. They should all be identified and shot.

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:34 am
by MajGenl.Meade
They made abortions legal in Ireland in 1973. But there's a compulsory 10-month waiting period

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:41 am
by Andrew D
The capacity of dgs49 to spew drivel is never-endingly astonishing.

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:03 am
by rubato
dgs49 wrote:"... Ergo, NO DEATHS due to abortion.

... "
The probability of dying by carrying a pregnancy to term are 10 x higher than having an abortion.

To those of us who care about empirical evidence, and don't hate women, that would be an order of magnitude.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:05 am
by Crackpot
rubato wrote:
dgs49 wrote:"... Ergo, NO DEATHS due to abortion.

... "
The probability of dying by carrying a pregnancy to term are 10 x higher than having an abortion.

To those of us who care about empirical evidence, and don't hate women, that would be an order of magnitude.


yrs,
rubato

I don't think Anyone could say it better.... Oh, Wait! Andrew D already did!

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:18 am
by Lord Jim
I gotta say one thing for you Dave...

Nobody is ever going to accuse you of begging off from posting an opinion that you know is going to be widely unpopular....

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:24 am
by Lord Jim
To those of us who care about empirical evidence
Gee this must be something new rube....

Since I could sit here all night reposting example after example after example of you demonstrating nothing but utter contempt for empirical evidence....you consistently resist and deny it with an iron discipline...In fact I'm not even sure you have a rudimentary grasp of the concept; I think it must just be a phrase you picked up from somewhere when you heard somebody else say it, and you like the way it sounds....

In fact, I can't think of anyone on this board who has shown less interest in "empirical evidence" than your own good self....

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:25 am
by Gob
Lord Jim wrote:I gotta say one thing for you Dave...

Nobody is ever going to accuse you of begging off from posting an opinion that you know is going to be widely unpopular....
I've always said that about Dave. Much as I disagree with his opinion, I have always respected his willingness to stand up for his beliefs.

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:50 pm
by dgs49
To all: Abortion is the killing of a human fetus. The very idea that abortion is "safer" than childbirth is turning the facts upside down. It's not safe at all to the FUCKING BABY, is it?

How's that for empirical?

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:39 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
dgs, your exact point is correct. Abortion is 100% fatal to the child.

However, I've noticed that the word f***ing :oops: has begun to appear over-frequently in your missives. We've had democrats, liberals, economists and now babies who appear to be engaged in some kind of permanent copulatory activity - though not with each other one trusts. While making allowances for verbal pottyism, when you are typing there's really no excuse for using the word, let alone capitalising it.

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:48 pm
by Daisy
Dave without exploding into a cloud of rhetorical gas, in the case we are discussing are you saying that the woman in question should have been refused an abortion?

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:23 pm
by rubato
dgs49 wrote:To all: Abortion is the killing of a human fetus. The very idea that abortion is "safer" than childbirth is turning the facts upside down. It's not safe at all to the FUCKING BABY, is it?

How's that for empirical?

If you think that a woman's life is of equal value then those facts are right-side up.


It is not plausible to call a fetus a "baby" until it can survive outside the womb. The RC church itself didn't consider abortion to be murder until very recently when science showed them the details of conception. Before then they considered the beginning of life to be 'quickening' or roughly 20 weeks gestation. The idea that "abortion is murder" during the first two trimesters is a recent (and unexamined) superstition.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:28 am
by Grim Reaper
dgs49 wrote:To all: Abortion is the killing of a human fetus. The very idea that abortion is "safer" than childbirth is turning the facts upside down. It's not safe at all to the FUCKING BABY, is it?

How's that for empirical?
Abortions are much safer for the mother. And this mother, in this case that we are discussing in this thread, could not have possibly carried her fetus to term. Which is mindblowingly obvious given that she died long before she could have given birth.

On the other hand, she could have had an abortion, and then continued her life, with the potential to have children in the future.

So that leaves us with the conclusion that you wanted this woman to die for no good reason.

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:38 am
by Andrew D
dgs49 wrote:Anyway, not a single loss of life (other than the BABIES' lives, of course, but they don't count) due to an elective abortion.
But would she have had to have "an elective abortion"?

Or could she, a seriously ill pregnant womant, have had a procedure in which the baby's life would have been put at risk (in this case, overwhelmingly at risk)?

In response to this incident, the Standing Committee of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference has issued a Statement "on the equal and inalienable right to life of a mother and her unborn child":
· The Catholic Church has never taught that the life of a child in the womb should be preferred to that of a mother. By virtue of their common humanity a mother and her unborn baby are both sacred with an equal right to life.

· Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

· Whereas abortion is the direct and intentional destruction of an unborn baby and is gravely immoral in all circumstances, this is different from medical treatments which do not directly and intentionally seek to end the life of the unborn baby. Current law and medical guidelines in Ireland allow nurses and doctors in Irish hospitals to apply this vital distinction in practice while upholding the equal right to life of both a mother and her unborn baby.
Is your position even more extreme than the position of the Irish Bishops?

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:51 am
by Joe Guy
dgs49 wrote:To all: Abortion is the killing of a human fetus. The very idea that abortion is "safer" than childbirth is turning the facts upside down. It's not safe at all to the FUCKING BABY, is it?

How's that for empirical?
You aren't responding to the story in the OP.

Instead you are preaching against abortion.

Why can't you Understand that each situation is unique?

Re: Irish Heartbeat.

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:15 am
by Andrew D
I find myself in the unusual -- although, as some here may recall, not unprecedented -- position of defending the Roman Catholic Church.

It appears to me that the problem is not the RCC's doctrine. Rather, the problem appears to be some people's misunderstanding of that doctrine.

Someone or some people apparently decided that the child's life had to be preferred over that of the mother, no matter what. So they put her at risk of dying from septacaemia-- as, in fact, she did, and it appears that the risk was obvious to any competent medical professional -- in order to "save" the life of a child who, according (reportedly) to doctors, had no hope of survival.

If I read the Irish Bishops' statement correctly -- and it appears to me to be entirely consistent with many other statements by RCC hierarchs -- the RCC's doctrine did not require them to choose that option.

In short, this particular case does not look to me like a problem springing from RCC doctrine. It looks to me like a problem springing from someone's failure to grasp RCC doctrine.

And whatever one may think of the RCC, those are two very different things.