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Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:03 pm
by Gob
THE Lakemba Mosque has issued a fatwa against Christmas, warning followers it is a ''sin'' to even wish people a Merry Christmas.
The religious ruling, which followed a similar lecture during Friday prayers at Australia's biggest mosque, was posted on its Facebook site on Saturday morning.
The head imam at Lakemba, Sheikh Yahya Safi, had told the congregation during prayers that they should not take part in anything to do with Christmas.
Samir Dandan, the president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which oversees the mosque, could not be reached for comment on Saturday.
The fatwa, which has sparked widespread community debate and condemnation, warns that the "disbelievers are trying to draw Muslims away from the straight path".
It also says that Christmas Day and associated celebrations are among the "falsehoods that a Muslim should avoid ... and therefore, a Muslim is neither allowed to celebrate the Christmas Day nor is he allowed to congratulate them".
The posting of the fatwa has shocked many Muslim leaders. The Grand Mufti of Australia, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, said the foundations of Islam were peace, co-operation, respect and holding others in esteem.
"Anyone who says otherwise is speaking irresponsibly," he said.
"There is difference between showing respect for someone's belief and sharing those beliefs," Dr Ibrahim said.
Dr Ibrahim said the views did not represent the majority of Muslims in Australia. "We are required to have good relations with all people, and to congratulate them on their joyous events is very important."
The fatwa quotes the teacher Imam Ibn Al-Qayyim as saying that congratulating disbelievers for their rituals is forbidden, and if a "Muslim who says this does not become a disbeliever himself, he at least commits a sin as this is the same as congratulating him for his belief in the trinity, which is a greater sin and much more disliked by Almighty Allaah than congratulating him for drinking alcohol or killing a soul or committing fornication or adultery”.
A community leader, Dr Jamal Rifi, said he did not agree with the school of thought behind the fatwa.
"We can share the festivities with friends and families and neighbours – I don't think there is any civil, religious or ethical reason not to," he said.
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:23 pm
by Lord Jim
The posting of the fatwa has shocked many Muslim leaders. The Grand Mufti of Australia, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, said the foundations of Islam were peace, co-operation, respect and holding others in esteem.
"Anyone who says otherwise is speaking irresponsibly," he said.
"There is difference between showing respect for someone's belief and sharing those beliefs," Dr Ibrahim said.
Dr Ibrahim said the views did not represent the majority of Muslims in Australia. "We are required to have good relations with all people, and to congratulate them on their joyous events is very important."
Gee whiz, what's such a sensible fellow doing in a position like that? He'll probably wind up with a fatwa himself...
This Safi character sounds like the Muslim equivalent of that Terry Jones joker down in Florida who made such a stir by announcing he was going to have a "Koran burning"....Act in a gratuitously insulting way to get publicity and attention for yourself....
(Of course there is
one difference...I wouldn't expect to see a lot of Christians rioting over this...)
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:35 pm
by Joe Guy
Don't you EVER say Merry Christmas to ME!!!
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:28 am
by Sean
It's slightly different Jim... If he was threatening to burn Bibles you might see a different reaction from Christians...
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:34 am
by Lord Jim
If he was threatening to burn Bibles you might see a different reaction from Christians...
You think they'd start rioting?
I don't recall any riots over Maplethorp's "Piss Christ" or the elephant dung Madonna....(not
that Madonna...a portrait made of elephant dung would be perfectly appropriate for
her....)
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:59 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Sean wrote:It's slightly different Jim... If he was threatening to burn Bibles you might see a different reaction from Christians...
Maybe those Westboro fiends. But it's rather different Sean. Moslems (as I understand it) regard every copy of the Koran as sacred - not just the words but the physical fabric of each one. In essence, to burn the Koran is a great blasphemy - almost burning Allah as it were.
Christians believe that the Bible is God's word (or I should say, as close as can be achieved given that the inspired text is what was originally written - the original manuscripts). Therefore, my NIV or my KJV or my ESV etc. are physically only non-sacred paper and covers. I've burned Bibles myself once they've worn out. I write comments in 'em, highlight bits, accidentally rip a page now and then. No Moslem would allow any of that to happen to the Koran.
No I think that if a Moslem cleric announced he was going to burn 25 copies of the American Standard the normal Christian reaction would be "So what?" It wouldn't hurt us, see?
Meade
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:10 pm
by Lord Jim
Moslems (as I understand it) regard every copy of the Koran as sacred - not just the words but the physical fabric of each one.
If
that's the case, wouldn't that be a form of "idol worship" which I understand the Islamic faith is against?
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:30 pm
by Sue U
Lord Jim wrote: Moslems (as I understand it) regard every copy of the Koran as sacred - not just the words but the physical fabric of each one.
If
that's the case, wouldn't that be a form of "idol worship" which I understand the Islamic faith is against?
No, it is repect and reverence for sacred texts. Jews have similar practices.
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:40 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Lord Jim wrote: Moslems (as I understand it) regard every copy of the Koran as sacred - not just the words but the physical fabric of each one.
If
that's the case, wouldn't that be a form of "idol worship" which I understand the Islamic faith is against?
No it would not be idol worship because the Koran is not exactly a separate thing from Allah, I think. It is, in perhaps a piss-poor analogy, an extension of Allah into the world by his written word. So to desecrate the Koran is to desecrate Allah
The parallel with Jewish reverence for the Torah scrolls such as only using a yad (pointer) to touch the page is similar but not the same. As Sue says, in their case it is great respect for the text. But in Judaism, as in Christianity, the inspired words are not confused with God Himself.
Meade
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:24 pm
by Gob
Religion, it's all a load of old bollocks isn't it?
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:46 pm
by Jarlaxle
Sean wrote:It's slightly different Jim... If he was threatening to burn Bibles you might see a different reaction from Christians...
Yes...they would be upset and angry. They would write letters to newspapers, maybe even protest.
Burning a Koran, of course, results in Muslims exploding into an orgy of slaughter.
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:12 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Gob wrote:Religion, it's all a load of old bollocks isn't it?
For some, for some
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:53 pm
by dgs49
I thot Muslims considered JC a great prophet. What's wrong with celebrating his birth?
This imam might be the Islamic counterpart to jimmy swag art. Inflammatory just to raise his personal profile.
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:19 am
by Sean
More to the point, what's wrong with not celebrating his birth? Why should anyone get upset because non-Christian faiths don't want to celebrate Christian events?
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:28 am
by Rick
Then don't celebrate...
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:22 am
by Lord Jim
More to the point, what's wrong with not celebrating his birth? Why should anyone get upset because non-Christian faiths don't want to celebrate Christian events?
I'm sorry, but I really don't see how that's "more to the point"....
In fact it looks like a complete strawman to me....
Who's been complaining or getting "upset" if non-Christians don't want to celebrate Christian events?
That seems to me to be coming completely out of left field; where are you getting that from?
The OP isn't about Muslims not celebrating Christian events; It's about some wacky publicity hungry Islamic leader telling his congregates that it's a sin to even wish a Christian friend a Merry Christmas....It's about a religious leader trying to mandate rudeness, and telling the members of his Mosque that it's forbidden to engage in the minimal courtesy of respecting
someone elses faith. It's not about what Muslims themselves do or do not celebrate, or anyone having an issue with that.
I'm sorry Sean, but far from being "more to the point" I don't see how your comments are even remotely relevant to the subject at hand.
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:47 am
by Sean
Actually Jim, it was a direct response to the first part of Dave's post. Read the two posts together...
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:08 am
by Lord Jim
Ah, I see now...
I was just skimming through, didn't catch the connection...
My apologizes for biting your head off...
It appears it is in fact Dave who had the wrong end of the stick about the OP...
For the record, I, and (I suspect most people) see absolutely nothing wrong with people who are not Christians, choosing not to celebrate Christian observations; I wouldn't expect them to, there's no reason they should.
In fact, personally I don't care what
anyone else chooses to celebrate or not celebrate; as far as I'm concerned that's an entirely personal decision. (In fact there are even some
Christian religions that don't celebrate some Christian events, like Christmas..the Puritans didn't, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't, Some Amish/Mennonite groups don't either, but some do....there may be others...that's fine with me too...not my business... )
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:00 am
by Sean
Then we are in complete agreement on this one Jim.
Re: Xmas greeting sin
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:18 am
by MajGenl.Meade
I thot Muslims considered JC a great prophet. What's wrong with celebrating his birth?
Actually LJ I think your first reaction was spot on.
That post by dgs does not even remotely suggest "get(ting) upset because non-Christian faiths don't want to celebrate Christian events" as Sean so errantly put it.
For once, dgs posted to the point of the op. He suggests that since Moslems do consider Jesus a prophet second only to Mohammed, why would the Imam think there was something wrong with recognising his birth (whether by Christians or even in a Moslem wishing a Christian friend 'Merry Christmas')? It's a straightfoward question.
Sean's post might better be placed directly under the op and ask why anyone is upset about the fatwa when, after all, "non-Christian faiths don't want to celebrate Christian events". Let them eat fatwas. Or smoke 'em if you have 'em.
Meade