Plan B Forum

I for one, am sick and tired of hearing about how terrible the Catholic Church is....

There is no private organization in the whole history of the world, that has done more good for more people, than The Catholic Church...

There is no organization that runs more private orphanages or charities......There is no organization that has worked as hard as this one has, to bring more hope and sustenance to more people than this one has...

Are there "bad priests'?

I'm sure there are...(the record would seem to indicate that...far more than there should be)

But in 40 plus years of dealing with priests, I personally have never met one...

Never been molested by a priest: have actually become friends with a few...

Lord Jim wrote:
There is no private organization in the whole history of the world, that has done more good for more people, than The Catholic Church...

Did you expect me to agree there Jim?

There has been no organisation on earth which has caused so much unnecessary misery and pain and suffering, by its teachings on contraception, abortion, homosexuality, celibacy of priests, denial of women's rights, and by its protection of paedophiles. The Catholic church takes money from the poor, and holds Billions in its banks.

First of all, none of the good done outweighs or justifies the bad acts. One is entirely independent of the other.

Secondly, "bad priests" are only part of the issue, and by stating it like that you're just underscoring what the issue is. It is the consistent refusal to address the "bad priest" problem, the denials, the coverups, and the pathetic justification for the "bad priest" behavior that is equally as problematic as the pedophilia itself.

The most powerful organization on the face of the planet, one that is supposed to be doing good works, has and had a duty and an obligation to take far better care of its members - especially the most vulnerable members-- than it has. And given its power it could have been a force for good, instead of the precise opposite.

Did you expect me to agree there Jim?

Of course not; you're a heathen....

Twice already (hopefully never again) I went into a Catholic Charities detox/rehabcrisis center for my alcohol problem. The name of the place is The Talbot House. No insurance asked for, no payments and no money wanted.
First time I was there for a week and they wanted to send me to a full rehab center but I declined (bad move) then a year later went back there for 2 weeks until a bed opened up in a rehab center when I spent 28 days there.

Talbot house (Catholic Charities) did for me what I could not do for myself and asked nothing in return other than I put in the effort toward my own recovery. Since I was released from the rehab center I have subscribed to the daily newspaper to be delivered (3 copies) toTalbot House as the biggest thing I missed while there, was the newspaper. I read many a book in there, but the morning paper was my biggest yearning.
Being the control freak I am, I did impose a rule or more on the use of the newspapers, which the people there did agree on. 1) No one was allowed to take the paper back to their dorm room, all papers must remain in the general dining or reading areas. 2) if you want to do a puzzle (crossword, cryptoquote, jumble, soduko, etc) get that page copied at the front desk (the office people agreed to do this). 3) If you need an ad for a job, get that copied at the front desk also. 4) Don't hog the paper, if you are reading part 1, let someone else read part 2 (Newsday comes in two parts). So far there have been no problems. I do go back there and speak once in a while at the nightly AA meeting and I do see the days paper under the lectern (which I guess is where it gets put).

It costs me a few buck every week, but it's the least I can do for how much they helped me.

If I forgot to say it, I am thankfull for CATHOLIC Charities (even if I am not a practicing Catholic, nor practicing any religion)

As you demonstrate oldr, catholic charities do a lot of good (although I would not be surprised if there are other charitable organization that do just as much, if not more, I'd love to see the statistics--I would lean to the international red cross/red crescent and UNICEF being in the same magnitude, e.g.). And, as Gob pointed out, the positions of the RC church on things such as birth control and homosexuality (however earnestly held) have caused countless millions great harm; certainly there are far fewer policies that have harmed more people than the RC church's position on birth control--from overpopulation, to producing children you cannot provide for, to helping spread HIV/AIDS by saying the use of a condom is evil, to ...; and these cannot (and should not) be dismissed by saying, OK, but we also do good works that help people. I won't debate their religious reasons for holding this position, but I cannot defend it at all. And the RC church cannot be fairly assessed without considering this.

What he said.

This may be a silly comparison but a similar criticism is often repeated about Kaiser Permanente.

I've heard all kinds of horror stories about Kaiser and how patients have been mistreated or have had botched surgeries compared to other hospitals.

But the reason you hear so much is there are nearly 5000 kaiser hospitals in the U.S. compared to the local hospital you may have heard have had few or no problems.

So, when some people read that a Kaiser hospital doctor in Arizona cut off the wrong leg of a patient they believe their local Kaiser is not trustworthy.

The large majority of Catholic priests are good people who are never involved in any type of scandal. But good people don't make good press. It won't sell newspapers or get the internet squawking if you report on how priests and doctors are doing good things around the world and acting normal like we expect them to act.

The large majority of Catholic priests are good people who are never involved in any type of scandal. But good people don't make good press. It won't sell newspapers or get the internet squawking if you report on how priests and doctors are doing good things around the world and acting normal like we expect them to act.

Precisely.

Every single priest I have ever known or worked with has been decent, hardworking and dedicated.

And it's unlikely anyone will ever write an article or do a TV news segment on any of them.

You're lucky not to have known the priest at the church I grew up in. "First class asshole" only begins to describe it.

When I was a child living in San Francisco some of my parent's friends were Catholic priests (I went to Catholic school and my parent's were members of the PTA). They came to our house to visit quite often. One of them, Father Faringo, is the priest that I remember best. He would cook Italian meals for us for dinner and I remember my parents laughing and enjoying his company.

I remember one day when my mother had a car full of a bunch of us kids and Father Faringo drove another car full of kids and my Mom raced him from wherever the heck we were coming from to the school for an event that was scheduled in the school auditorium.

We won. Father Faringo probably figured that God ruled the stoplights and speed limit.

Everyone involved with our church and school were good friends. If there had been some type of church scandal I'm sure my parents and their friends would have separated themselves from the situation.

But they all remained friends for years even after we moved away and became less involved with the church.

My point is that Catholic priests and nuns are no different than the rest of us. They have chosen a vocation just as we have. And just as we do, some of them have serious and not so serious problems and many others don't.

The problem is not priests and nuns. It has to do with the amount of attention by the media that is given to the Catholic church and how when something scandalous happens involving (usually a priest) it is implied that all priests, nuns and members of the Catholic hierarchy are guilty.

I'm sure we could pull individual cases from the prison population of people who were kind to kittens and loved their moms, but.....

The fact remains that the catholic church does more harm than good.

Gob wrote:I'm sure we could pull individual cases from the prison population of people who were kind to kittens and loved their moms, but.....

The fact remains that the catholic church does more harm than good.

And the fact remains that I've not seen evidence of the amount of harm vs good, since all the evidence made public seems to be harm vs lack of any attempt to show otherwise.

The fact remains that the catholic church does more harm than good.

Joe Guy wrote:
And the fact remains that I've not seen evidence of the amount of harm vs good, since all the evidence made public seems to be harm vs lack of any attempt to show otherwise.

As a white, middle-class, male, who living in a first world country, I wouldn't expect you to have seen it.

Gob wrote:

Joe Guy wrote:
And the fact remains that I've not seen evidence of the amount of harm vs good, since all the evidence made public seems to be harm vs lack of any attempt to show otherwise.

As a white, middle-class, male, who living in a first world country, I wouldn't expect you to have seen it.

Are you living in a second world country?

And how would you know whether or not I'm upper class and/or filthy rich?

Are you saying that you have statistics to show Catholic Church percentage of harm vs good?

Can you display a graph?

I have many questions for you if you have that information.

That would be much helpful. Especially the graph...

Ask, and you shall receive...

Looks like The Enneagram

Gob wrote:Ask, and you shall receive...

Well done.

I need to take time to analyze the evidence in the graph that you presented before I can give an intelligent response.

Give me a couple of weeks please...

Yeah, well I won't be convinced until I read what Brad DeLong and Paul Krugman have to say about it and tell me what I should think...

I don't wipe my butt without consulting Brad and Paul ....