Terrorism?

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Lord Jim
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Lord Jim »

LJ uses the word "clearly" twice. Oh and any lawyer knows (and it is taught on day one of law school) if you have to resort to using that word, your point is usually not so clear.
Ahh, that explains so much...

Lawyers are taught on "day one of law school" not to use the word "clearly"...

That clearly explains why so much of what they have to say is so fundamentally unclear...

They're taught not to be clear from "day one"...

Small surprise that this approach has produced a profession that relishes in obfuscation, ambiguity, and a pronounced lack of clarity...

They make their living off of it...

8-)
Last edited by Lord Jim on Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Britain on Wednesday cited the likely possibility of an explosive device as the cause of the crash, but made no mention of any group that may have been responsible.

"We have concluded that there is a significant possibility that the crash was caused by an explosive device on board the aircraft," Britain's foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, said after a meeting of the government's crisis response committee chaired by Prime Minister David Cameron.

Hammond's remarks came as Britain prepares to host a visit by Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi this week.

Egypt, a close ally of the United States and the most populous Arab country, dismissed a similar claim of responsibility for the crash by Islamic State on Saturday.

"It is believed to be an explosion but what kind is not clear. There is an examination of the sand at the crash site to try and determine if it was a bomb," said an Egyptian source who is close to the team investigating the black boxes.

"There are forensic investigations underway at the crash site. That will help determine the cause, to see if traces of explosives are found."

Sisi has described Islamist militancy as an existential threat to the Arab world and the West and has repeatedly called for greater international efforts to combat the militants.

Hammond said Britain is "advising against all but essential travel by air through Sharm el-Sheikh airport. That means that there will be no UK passenger flights out to Sharm el-Sheikh from now."

Remarks earlier on Wednesday by Britain's Cameron, who was due to hold talks in London with Sisi on Thursday, of concerns "the plane may well have been brought down by an explosive device" drew criticism from Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry.

He told CNN he was "somewhat surprised" by the British statement.

"This is a matter for the investigation to clarify and we should not prejudge or take any measures that might have implications," Shoukry said. "Implication also that the fact that a very large number of Egyptians who rely heavily on the tourist industry."

Britain said it was working with airlines and Egyptian authorities to put in place additional security and screening measures to allow Britons in Sharm el-Sheikh to get home, but that would take time and there would be no flights returning from the resort on Thursday.
"Abdel Fatah el-Sisi, hmmm? Now let's just see.... there's an E and A, a T and an H.... and we have SISI which sure reminds me of something...." (cont. P94)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Lord Jim »

I'm sure this had nothing to do with so-called "Islamic extremism"....


The bomb was probably planted by members of the Westboro Baptist Church...
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Guinevere
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Guinevere »

Lord Jim wrote:
LJ uses the word "clearly" twice. Oh and any lawyer knows (and it is taught on day one of law school) if you have to resort to using that word, your point is usually not so clear.
Ahh, that explains so much...

Lawyers are taught on "day one of law school" not to use the word "clearly"...

That clearly explains why so much of what they have to say is so fundamentally unclear...

They're taught not to be clear from "day one"...

Small surprise that this approach has produced a profession that relishes in obfuscation, ambiguity, and a pronounced lack of clarity...

They make their living off of it...

8-)
Right. Because that's exactly the role Sue, BigRR, and I play around here. Obfuscating things. :roll:

Believe it or not, clients are far more savvy than you apparently realize. Judges too. :lol:
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rubato
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by rubato »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:"....

So how come LJ gets the raspberries from you and rubato gets his boots polished - for saying the same kind of event "appears" or is "more likely"? Enquiring minds already know

:nana

Because I only listed what were the possibilities based on some specialized knowledge. I did not assert a conclusion and claim it was certain.


You are really not very perceptive.



yrs,
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rubato
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by rubato »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Guinevere wrote:Yep. I was specifically thinking of TWA 800 -- lots of conspiracy theories -- ended up being a design/construction flaw.
I was just looking for your post in which you berate rubato for not being a forensic video examiner, not to mention an aircraft mechanical engineer, and an expert in explosives, too.

I don't see it. Must be just over.... there...

Somewhere....

I'm sure of it...


And btw, I worked as a forensic chemist for 2 years and was certified as an expert witness in municipal, superior and federal courts during that time and was licensed to perform forensic alcohol examinations under title 17 (part of the health code) in California law. And as a chemist I do have a great deal more knowledge of explosives than most people in addition to the IATA certification mentioned above. I have also been the Chemical Hygiene Officer for our site for the past three years and frequently have to review and train others to recognize reactive and toxic chemical hazards.

I keep a copy of "Brethericks Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards" (both volumes) at my desk and refer to it often.


Perhaps it is that higher level of knowledge which led me to express myself in terms of probabilities because I am aware that the information available is partial and fragmentary and I know in detail what some of the other possibilities are.


yrs,
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Joe Guy
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Joe Guy »

The airplane exploded. Isis has claimed responsibility. I don't need a chemist to give me the odds for and against the possibility of terrorism.

Sometimes things are exactly what they appear to be...

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Scooter
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Scooter »

Because no terrorist group has ever claimed responsibility for an act they had nothing to do with, in an effort to give themselves cred. Terrorists are known for telling the truth about everything; that is their most distinguishing trademark.
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Joe Guy
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Joe Guy »

Scooter wrote:Because no terrorist group has ever claimed responsibility for an act they had nothing to do with, in an effort to give themselves cred. Terrorists are known for telling the truth about everything; that is their most distinguishing trademark.
Thanks for taking my side, Scooter... :D

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Lord Jim
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Lord Jim »

I did not assert a conclusion and claim it was certain.
Nor did I....
You are really not very perceptive.
Because no terrorist group has ever claimed responsibility for an act they had nothing to do with
Actually in the case of ISIS, murderous savages though they may be, pretty much everything they have publicly claimed has been verified...

Apparently they value their "credibility"...
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

rubato wrote:
MajGenl.Meade wrote:"....
So how come LJ gets the raspberries from you and rubato gets his boots polished - for saying the same kind of event "appears" or is "more likely"? Enquiring minds already know
:nana
Because I only listed what were the possibilities based on some specialized knowledge. I did not assert a conclusion and claim it was certain. You are really not very perceptive.
yrs,
rubato
...and my point was that you did not assert a conclusion and claim it was certain and neither did LJ assert a conclusion and claim it was certain.

Not very skilled at reading comprehension, are you?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Econoline
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Econoline »

A pretty good summary of the geopolitics of the crash investigation:
How This Alleged ISIS Plane Bombing Might Play Out
No one knows who to blame, but they know who they want to blame.
BY ROBERT BATEMAN | NOV 5, 2015 @ 5:36 PM

The first thing that should be understood about the Russian-operated, Irish-registered, French-designed, German-built airliner that went down in the Sinai Desert of Egypt on Halloween is that, as one might guess from the list of "interested parties," there will be a lot more going on here than just a crash investigation. There will be, and already are, politics involved, but the primary question seems to boil down to a basic one: Was this a terrorist attack, or was this a maintenance issue?

***

When I first landed at Ras Nasrani, the airport that is now known as "Sharm El Sheik International," it was a much smaller location. This was where the Russian jet departed from on Saturday, but the facility is far more significant now. Back then there was just one terminal, and that was fairly bare-bones. Indeed, at the time—this was 1991—it was not even an international airport at all. Clearing customs involved landing in Cairo, having the papers cleared, and then continuing on down to the southern tip of the Sinai Peninsula. From the airport itself it was still another 11 miles into town. Things have changed. A lot.

Back then the only tourist facility in the area was about halfway between the decidedly hardscrabbled town of Sharm and the airport at Ras Nasrani. Known as "Naama Bay," it catered to Westerners, mostly from Europe, but it, too, was not very large. About three-quarters of a mile across and maybe half a mile deep, it clings stubbornly to the edge of the desert along the Straits of Tiran, where the Red Sea meets the Gulf of Aqaba. On a bluff above this small resort was, and is, a military base. But it is not an Egyptian base; it is American. It houses a single infantry battalion and a few helicopters, as well as a multinational team of support ranging from Dutch Marines (who take care of commo), to the Italian Navy (who patrol the Straits of Tiran), and others. These forces are here as part of the 13-nation agreement to provide a multinational force on the border between Egypt and Israel, as brokered by President Carter at the Camp David Accords.

Now, as the news programs indicate, the whole area is significantly more developed, and in general terms, the whole stretch of the coast from the original port all the way up to the airport is just known as "Sharm." Indeed, all that development has now made one of the largest tourist destinations in Egypt. Europeans tend to go there in much the same way that Americans (who can afford it) head to the Caribbean. The whole stretch of the coast is now almost entirely given over to snorkeling and scuba diving. It explains why so many Russians were there, but also why several other European nations are extremely interested in the current investigation, and in that essential question: "What happened?"

The bottom line is that I do not know, and I rather suspect that whatever does come out of this investigation will be disputed by several of the parties. You really need a scorecard to keep track of this, and to help you make sense of future news. So here's the closest thing.

The Russians: Their interest is obvious, but, significantly, they are in a bit of a quandary. If this is blamed on ISIS, as some reports suggest, then one has to take the statements of an ISIS affiliate into account, and those statements claiming credit explicitly said that it was revenge for Russian activity in Syria. That puts Putin in the position of being part of the cause of the attack.

On the other hand, the Russian government (and especially the right wing) has been increasingly asserting control over large corporations, but as an international carrier nominally registered in Ireland, Metro sort of got around that rule. At the same time, it might also cause national embarrassment because of the implication that the Russians could not maintain the aircraft. So expect anything coming out of Russia to be confusing, and possibly contradictory, as Putin's government decides the result that they want to see—which is not the same thing as waiting for the evidence.

The Egyptians: They really do not want ISIS to be blamed, in no small part because that would indicate that they cannot protect people who come to their country and may not be able to control parts of their countryside. A decade ago there was a ground attack by radical Islamists in Sharm, though since that involved almost exclusively Egyptian citizens it passed from international notice after a while. (Eighty-eight people were killed and some 200 wounded in a triple bomb attack.) So they would be inclined to find a maintenance issue. The problem is that re-assembling a crashed jet is a long process, and figuring out what happened to that aircraft is even more complex. In the U.S., we are accustomed to the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board deploying a host of men and women extremely well trained in this. The Egyptians really do not have that luxury.

The French and Germans: As the designer and the builder, respectively, both countries have a "right" (under international treaties) to participate in the investigation, and each has sent a handful of investigators. What remains to be seen is how much the Egyptians will cooperate. We can look at the French and Germans together as a sort of honest broker in all this: The design is proven, and there has only ever been one incident in this type of aircraft related to a mechanical (and not pilot-induced) issue, so their joint reputation is not on the line.

The British: The Brits and the Germans probably send the most tourists to Sharm from Europe, so both countries have a motivation to get to the bottom of the issue. Today, the Prime Minister stated that all British flights to Sharm have been suspended out of "an abundance of caution." (The suspension actually started on the 4th.) The implication, spread across the British media, is that there was a good chance the Russian flight was brought down by a bomb onboard. Their source for this, it seems, has something to do with intelligence intercepts. Their version of the NSA, known as GCHQ, is just outside the town of Cheltenham, in Gloucestershire, about eight miles from where I used to live. With deep ties to their American counterparts, it seems quite possible that intelligence has been shared between the two. (Intelligence that neither the Russians nor Egyptians are likely to ever see.) This would also explain why the information coming from both governments is decidedly vague.

The United States: Technically, we have no real dog directly involved in this fight, aside from a more generic effort against terrorism everywhere. Starting yesterday morning, CNN, citing an anonymous source, put forward the idea that it was a bomb onboard. The problem here is that, due to what is known as "sources and methods," it is unlikely we will ever know specifically what "chatter" was picked up between and among some of the groups that we keep tabs on, nor how strong this source may be. Here in D.C., there are a lot of people with both big egos and vested institutional interests to make themselves or their organizations look important and/or relevant. Barbara Starr, the CNN reporter who broke the story, was careful with her own wording in the initial reporting, both to protect her source and because it would appear she did not have a "slam dunk," as it were. Inevitably, the echo-chamber took over, with CNN going almost exclusive on the story and bringing in a host of "experts." Over time, the verbiage went from "it is possible" to "it was likely," and then, for some of the 24-hour-network's hosts, it lost all caveats. Today, that started to get walked back, particularly since it appears that the "chatter" was heard after the attack, which means it just might have been discussions about how a group might claim credit—even if they didn't do it.

OK, there's your scorecard. Good luck keeping up with this.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Politics and reputations may trump the truth.
Much as I figured. :shrug

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Lord Jim
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Lord Jim »

Perhaps it is that higher level of knowledge...
Hmmm....

No, that's not it...

My experience in dealing with you over the years rube, has led me to conclude that a "higher level of knowledge" is pretty much never the explanation for anything you have to say...

In fact, frankly I can't imagine a more unlikely explanation...
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Lord Jim
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Re: Terrorism?

Post by Lord Jim »

U.S. official: '99.9% certain' Russian plane was felled by bomb

(CNN)Several senior administration officials in the intelligence, military and national security community told CNN the United States is almost positive a Russian passenger jet was brought down by a bomb.

How convinced are they?

One official said "it's 99.9% certain."

Another official told CNN on Saturday: "We believe it was likely brought down by a bomb."

Russia-bound Metrojet Flight 9268 crashed in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula last weekend, killing all 224 people aboard.

The evidence that it might have been a bomb centers to a large extent on British and U.S. intercepts of chatter after the crash from the ISIS affiliate in Sinai to ISIS operatives in Syria around Raqqa.

U.S. and British intelligence have been analyzing the specific language in the chatter to determine to what extent the operatives were talking about the type of bomb and detonator used, and whether that language was a true representation of what happened, one official told CNN.

Several officials said it's the specificity of the chatter that has directly contributed to the U.S. and British view that a bomb likely was used.

Egyptian officials gave the impression Saturday they are not ready to say there was a bombing.

A noise was heard in the final second of the cockpit voice recording on Metrojet Flight 9268 as it ascended on autopilot before apparently breaking up about 23 minutes after takeoff, the head of Egypt's investigation said Saturday.

No conclusion as to what brought down the flight has been reached, Ayman al-Muqaddam told reporters.

"All the scenarios are out on the table," he said. "We don't know what happened exactly."

European investigators who analyzed the two flight recorders are saying the crash is not an accident, CNN affiliate France 2 reported Friday.

Muqaddam said Egyptian authorities have not been provided any information or evidence tied to reports suggesting that a bomb took down the flight. He urged the sources of the reports to pass along related evidence to Egyptian investigators.

Muqaddam did not describe the noise investigators picked up from the cockpit voice recorder when the flight disintegrated midair while traveling at 281 knots (323 mph) at about 30,000 feet and climbing.

"A spectral analysis will be carried out by specialized labs in order to identify the nature of this noise," he said.

The investigation includes experts from Egypt, Russia, France, Germany and Ireland. In recent days the probe has been hampered by bad weather, Muqaddam said.

Debris from the plane was scattered over an area more than 13 kilometers long, suggesting an in-flight breakup, according to Muqaddam.

"Maybe it's a lithium battery, maybe it's an explosion, maybe it's ... a mechanical issue," he said the possible cause of the crash.

Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry said the international community had not heeded Egypt's calls to deal seriously with terrorism.

Other countries "did not show a level of cooperation and direct targeting of these organizations that we hoped for," Shoukry said. "I can say these calls were not heeded by many of the parties who are now working to protect the interests of their citizens."

While couched as a complaint, the statement appeared to mark a significant reversal for Egypt, where officials, perhaps concerned about the fate of the tourist industry, had spent a week rejecting the idea that the Russian plane fell victim to terrorism
.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/07/middleeas ... index.html

Of course this won't be good enough for the terrorism deniers; those folks who like to pretend that the terrorist threat is really no big deal, and whenever an incident like this takes place they will cling to even the thinnest of reeds to deny that it was due to terrorism...(especially if it's Islamicist terrorism; they'd be perfectly happy to call it terrorism if they could figure out some way to pin it on white Christians...)

The Egyptians may never come clean about this, (they still haven't even admitted to having a suicidal pilot some years ago) and Putin really has a vested interest in trying to deny this is a terrorist act, (Putin's various wars of conquest have been popular among many Russians because he has pulled them off at a very low cost. If the Russians begin to pay a price for his adventurism, this popularity could evaporate.) but presumably the straight story will come from the French, the Germans, and the Irish.

ETA:

CNN)European investigators who analyzed the two flight recorders from the Metrojet plane that went down last weekend in Egypt are categorically saying the crash is not an accident, CNN affiliate France 2 reported Friday.

The investigators said the cockpit voice recorder of Metrojet Flight 9268 shows an explosion and the flight data recorder confirms the explosion is not accidental -- there is no sign of mechanical malfunction during the initial part of the flight, France 2 reported.

Everything is fine during the first 24 minutes, then in a fraction of a second there is a blackout and no more cockpit conversation, convincing investigators there was a bomb on board, according to France 2.

CNN Aviation Analyst Richard Quest said there would have been different data on the black boxes if there was a catastrophic failure than if there was an explosion. The key is what happened just before the data suddenly stops, he said.

"It's this split second, and it's a millisecond, where you hear an explosion of some description," he said. "And you see all the parameters (on the recorders) go haywire before the power is completely lost. If this report is accurate, (investigators) have now analyzed that ... heard it and they can identify it."

If the plane had broken apart due to structural failure, there would have been more noise -- and for a longer time, he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/06/middleeas ... ypt-sinai/
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PUTIN'S QUANDARY

Post by RayThom »

This is one choice he'll have to make sooner than later: concentrate on ISIS, the now anti-Russian terrorist organization, or the anti-al Assad, insurgent forces? Even the Russian people can't be ignored and Putin is caught right in the middle.

The downing of flight 9268 may very well have a dark benefit of possibly destroying ISIS in Syria. The US just needs to hold back a bit and watch what means Putin will use to accomplish the task. No doubt more efficiently, but more violently, than western forces would have ever dared. Yes, the US will make a lot of noise but do little to stop him. That's the diplomatic way to work it.

If this goal can be reached, I feel Russia will then, somehow, work a deal that moves al Assad out of the picture and allows the people of Syria to start looking less at war and more toward, at least, an uneasy peace.
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