Captured sailors

Right? Left? Centre?
Political news and debate.
Put your views and articles up for debate and destruction!
User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Captured sailors

Post by Lord Jim »

BTW, I checked out the Sanders site, and there's no way to make a contribution in somebody elses name (and even if there were I'd still need to have his name and email address for him to be notified) so I don't know what he's talking about when he says that after I make a contribution he'll get a "receipt"...

(My guess is he was just being an asshole again, thinking that somehow I'd be dumb enough not to realize this... :P)

Bottom line, if he's unwilling to give me his name and address to send him the check, (since he's too much of a Luddite to have a PayPal account) then I feel that I've acted honorably on my end to attempt to make payment, and he's just SOL...
Last edited by Lord Jim on Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ImageImageImage

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Captured sailors

Post by wesw »

I think that he said that they would send you a receipt....

...and the contribution would be in your name.

I hope that helps... :mrgreen:

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Captured sailors

Post by Guinevere »

He did indeed say "No need to put my name on the check."

He also said they would send a receipt for tax purposes. Of course they will send a receipt, but campaign contributions are not tax-deductible.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Captured sailors

Post by Lord Jim »

Guin, you're missing the next post of his after the one that you're referencing...

When I asked him:
Yes, and if I do that, how are you going to know that you were paid? And how am I going to prove that I paid you?
To which he replied:
I thought about that. They will send me a copy of the receipt which I will post here.
How does he get a copy of the receipt if there's no way for me to reference him (ie, name, email address) when I make the contribution?
ImageImageImage

oldr_n_wsr
Posts: 10838
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am

Re: Captured sailors

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

If he doesn't want the money and you feel the need to send the money somewhere, why not send it to the planb operation fund.
No tax deduction, but from what Guin said, you would not have gotten one anyway.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21467
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Captured sailors

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

The solution is obvious. LJ - you make the contribution. You get the receipt (surely there's some kind of acknowledgement?). Then you scan it and post the image on here.

For less than whatever you have to stump up, I can make a fake receipt showing the higher amount. But don't tell anyone
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Captured sailors

Post by Lord Jim »

The solution is obvious. LJ - you make the contribution. You get the receipt (surely there's some kind of acknowledgement?). Then you scan it and post the image on here.
I thought about that Meade, but my responsibility is to pay the guy, not do a whole bunch of clerical work on top of that...

I do however like the idea of making a $25 contribution on behalf ExK to the Plan B Website Renewal Fund...(Which can be easily verified by Strop posting that he has received it) if that will work for ExK, I will do that...
ImageImageImage

oldr_n_wsr
Posts: 10838
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am

Re: Captured sailors

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Every once in a blue moon I have a halfway good idea. :mrgreen:

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21467
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Captured sailors

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Let's see - write a check, buy a stamp, address an envelope, take it to mail box..... yeah, sounds easy

Sit at home; copy (probably from an email) a receipt; post it here

Yep - I can really see you'll go to any length to avoid contributing to the slow Bern! :lol:
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

oldr_n_wsr
Posts: 10838
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am

Re: Captured sailors

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Getting back to the original topic. I found this article.
The Story You Aren’t Being Told About Iran Capturing Two American Vessels

The most important takeaway from this incident is to remember the high-tech military of the United States has an exposed vulnerability. It’s a vulnerability that was exploited by Iran.

Tehran, Iran – The airwaves in the United States were filled with images of sailors on their knees while a US Navy vessel was searched. Unjustified outrage swept the nation. The US Secretary of Defense blamed the incident on a simple navigation error, however a chain of events leading back to 2009 demonstrates the facts are a little more complicated than first appear. The chain of events leads defense analysts to one unmistakable conclusion: Iran has the ability to disrupt US GPS systems. For western military analysts, the thought is terrifying. The West uses GPS for much more than replacing a compass and a map.

In 2009, Lockheed Martin’s RQ-170 Sentinel showed up on a runway in Kandahar, Afghanistan. The aircraft entered service two years earlier, but the public was unaware. The bat wing styled drone is reminiscent of the Stealth Bomber. The similarities extend beyond the cosmetic, and the RQ-170 is the premier spy drone in the US fleet. This was the drone used to map out Bin Laden’s compound. It was tasked with keeping an eye on Iran’s nuclear program. That’s when things got interesting.

On December 4, 2011 a RQ-170 Sentinel crashed into the Iranian countryside. Iran claimed its electronic warfare unit brought the plane down. The US Department of Defense stated the aircraft was flying over western Afghanistan and crashed near or in Iran. The aircraft was 140 miles inside Iran’s borders. The west laughed at the idea of Iran’s military obtaining the capability to down one the most sophisticated drones in the world. One military official remarked it was like:

“dropping a Ferrari into an ox-cart technology culture.”

They probably shouldn’t have been so quick to laugh. It appears the Iranians didn’t just down the aircraft, they took control of it mid-flight. Dailytech.com explained:

“Using its knowledge of the frequency, the engineer claims, Iran intiated its ‘electronic ambush’ by jamming the bird’s communications frequencies, forcing it into auto-pilot. States the source, ‘By putting noise [jamming] on the communications, you force the bird into autopilot. This is where the bird loses its brain.’

“The team then use a technique known as ‘spoofing’ — sending a false signal for the purposes of obfuscation or other gain. In this case the signal in questions was the GPS feed, which the drone commonly acquires from several satellites. By spoofing the GPS feed, Iranian officials were able to convince it that it was in Afghanistan, close to its home base. At that point the drone’s autopilot functionality kicked in and triggered the landing. But rather than landing at a U.S. military base, the drone victim instead found itself captured at an Iranian military landing zone.

“Spoofing the GPS is a clever method, as it allows hackers to ‘land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to crack the [encrypted] remote-control signals and communications.’

“While the technique did not require sophistication from a cryptography perspective, it was not entirely trivial, either, as it required precise calculations to be made to give the drone the proper forged distance and find and fine an appropriate altitude landing strip to make sure the drone landed as it did in Afghanistan. The Iranian engineers knew the details of the landing site, because the drone had been confirmed in grainy photos to be landing at a base in Khandar, Afghanistan.

“Despite the careful calculations, the drone still sustained a dent in its wing and underbody (though it did not have the usual signs of a high-speed collision). During its press conferences, the Iranian military covered this damage with anti-American banners.

“The engineer explained this damage commenting, ‘If you look at the location where we made it land and the bird’s home base, they both have [almost] the same altitude. There was a problem [of a few meters] with the exact altitude so the bird’s underbelly was damaged in landing; that’s why it was covered in the broadcast footage.’The approach echoes an October security conference presentation [PDF] in Chicago, in which ETH Zurich researchers laid out how to use interference and GPS spoofing to more gently down a drone.”


The Aviationist agreed and suggested the US “reconsider their drones’ equipment, countermeasures and combat operation procedures as well as Iran’s electronic and cyberwarfare capabilities.” It should be noted the “ox-cart technology culture” has since reverse engineered the drone.

The gross underestimation of the Iranian military led to the recent incident in the Persian Gulf. The story being repeated in the western press is one of ten sailors getting lost and ending up in Iranian territorial waters (if the outlet mentions that part). According to Secretary of Defense Carter, “All the contributing factors to that we don’t know yet, and we’re still talking to those folks, and we’ll find out more … but they were clearly out of the position that they intended to be in.”

Two boats lost their GPS abilities at the same time, and the Secretary of Defense isn’t sure what happened? A few US outlets, such as the L.A. Times, reported on the other malfunctions during the incident. Both boats lost radio communication and all other communication during the incident. A single vehicle losing its GPS abilities can happen. It’s rare, but it can happen. Two vehicles losing the systems at the same time borders on implausible, but there is still a possibility of it occurring through Murphy’s Law. The loss of all communication equipment and GPS systems on two boats at the same time means one thing: electronic warfare.

The unwillingness to admit the US military has spent billions on a system that has apparently been defeated by Iran is the most likely culprit behind the western media’s attempt to focus on the “ill treatment” of US sailors. Even the L.A. Times, which was willing to report on the communications failures, placed the following quote in a bold offset in the same article:

“The way those sailors were treated was entirely inappropriate. … The U.S. Navy would never demand Iranian sailors hold their hands on their heads and coerce a confession.– James Stavridis, retired U.S. admiral”


The U.S. Navy’s installation at Guantanamo Bay has been the scene of the worst treatment of detainees by the US government in decades. The sailors captured by Iran were not waterboarded, deprived of sleep or food, sexually abused, or otherwise tortured. The United States does not have the moral authority to object to how another nation treats detainees.

The burning question now relates to whether or not Iran’s actions constitute an attack on the U.S. It’s not a simple question. Electronic warfare and cyber warfare have become common place. It is also worth noting the two US vessels were within just a few miles of Farsi Island. Farsi Island is the home of the Revolutionary Guards’ Navy (RGN). The RGN is Iran’s maritime unconventional warfare force. For comparison, imagine a scenario in which a nation that has attacked a US civilian airliner and whose political leaders have constantly threatened war sent two boats to pass extraordinarily close to the home base of a U.S. Seal Team. The reader can decide if Iran’s actions were appropriate.

The most important takeaway from this incident is to remember the high-tech military of the United States has an exposed vulnerability. It’s a vulnerability that was exploited by Iran. Iran is not a nation many in military circles would see as technologically advanced. The drone warfare system has a fatal flaw. If Iran can exploit it, China and Russia certainly can. Even North Korea has been able to successfully disrupt the GPS system. Beyond simple navigation, the U.S. employs the GPS system to guide missiles. If the Iranians can jam and spoof their way into controlling a drone, it isn’t a huge leap to believe have the ability, or will soon have the ability, to do the same thing with guided missiles.

It should be noted that GPS jammers are available on the civilian market and have been detected in use inside the United Kingdom. This revelation may also be the reasoning behind the U.S. decision to require drone operators to register their aircraft.
http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-story- ... ls/212937/

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Captured sailors

Post by wesw »

yeah older, I fear that the article is spot on.

we need to start re building our low tech arsenal, and pronto, or our defenses may be rendered useless with a simple mouse click.

oldr_n_wsr
Posts: 10838
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am

Re: Captured sailors

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Years ago I built a cell phone jammer. Basically a white noise generator at the cell frequencies at the time. Totally illegal.

GPS jamming and "take over" is a little more complicated. Seems we (USA) need a Plan B (not to be confused with this website). :mrgreen:

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21467
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Captured sailors

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Image
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

rubato
Posts: 14245
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Re: Captured sailors

Post by rubato »

The article was chock full of speculation with little leavening of facts.

BTW

Don't they still use inertial guidance systems in concert with GPS?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_ ... ion_system


yrs,
rubato

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Captured sailors

Post by wesw »

oh , go bake some bread, alice...

speaking of inertial guidance.... take a long walk on a short pier..., and go jump in a lake!

...poor fish.

sorry rube, I blame sue for my problem....

...hey! I AM a democrat!!!!

User avatar
datsunaholic
Posts: 2672
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 am
Location: The Wet Coast

Re: Captured sailors

Post by datsunaholic »

They don't have inertial navigation systems on patrol boats.

They DO have a compass.

And paper charts. If they didn't have paper charts someone was being irresponsible. Never, ever rely solely on the electronics.

That "article" looks a lot like someone making up "facts" to fit the circumstances. Sure, it's possible. But someone has been watching too much TV, because "Faking out the GPS" was the exact plot device used on a recent TV show to solve the danger.

But, the lack of facts given by the military does tend to spawn this sort of thing.

A few key things I got from what WAS released were questions, like why the Military didn't know the boats had been detained until they missed a scheduled radio check. When I was a boat engineer/navigator/radio talker on the patrol boats, I know the second something happened I was on the radio. I caused 2 exercise stoppages on the radio (once because we had just run over a zodiac with 2 Marines in it and the second when a Canadian Coast Guard boat had run full speed into a channel buoy). When in Egypt, we had an Egyptian patrol boat drive in front of us and block our movements, and I was on the radio with the shore command immediately- and these were supposedly friendlies. I would think that if I saw a bunch of Iranian patrol boats zooming up I'd be on the radio at least reporting it. The secure crypto radio. If comms were jammed that would have prevented it, but then why, when the higher command noticed the boats had missed a scheduled transmission, did they ping the boat's GPS system (more likely the transponder) and find that they were in Iranian waters? Not very jammed if you could find them. (We didn't have transponders, so if we went missing they wouldn't have found us that quickly).

Of course, if you're getting captured you are also supposed to dump the crypto, so I suppose the radio guy might have gotten panicky and flipped the dump switch first thing. Enough guys in my unit did that on accident. I may have even done it once.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.

Post Reply