New York state of mind

[Big RR]

there will be a revolution in this country by those of us who still believe in the Constitution.

I trust that it won't come to that, and that the military (or a good portion of it) would not side with Trump and his minions if it did; but if they do, good luck with taking on the US military with all its weaponry--gone are the days when small arms (and maybe IEDs) will win the day. The fight would be worth it, but the ultimate outcome would not be what anyone wants. We'd eventually become a society like post civil war Spain.

[Burning Petard]

"And I certainly have no objection to a Muslim president. (I'd rather see an atheist but that's another castle in the air.) "

Andy, IMNSHO. In the 20th and 21st centuries the names at the head of the ticket and were elected were ALL athiests--with the exception of Jimmy Carter and Mike Pence. ALL the others have been religious as a public political convenience and hardly acted upon those principles. Bush declared Jesus Christ and the bible were his authorities and promptly acted with preemptive war. Nixon as a Quaker could have only been the punch line of a joke. Trump is the living cliche of the con-man bible salesman.

[Joe Guy]

Trump is the living cliche of the con-man bible salesman.

[BoSoxGal]

"And I certainly have no objection to a Muslim president. (I'd rather see an atheist but that's another castle in the air.) "

Andy, IMNSHO. In the 20th and 21st centuries the names at the head of the ticket and were elected were ALL athiests--with the exception of Jimmy Carter and Mike Pence. ALL the others have been religious as a public political convenience and hardly acted upon those principles. Bush declared Jesus Christ and the bible were his authorities and promptly acted with preemptive war. Nixon as a Quaker could have only been the punch line of a joke. Trump is the living cliche of the con-man bible salesman.

Okay I'm hardly one to defend faith, but all faithful are sinners, some much worse than others. I don't think it's fair to suggest that every POTUS and VPOTUS in the 20th and 21st centuries were atheists.

JFK an atheist? Because he fornicated outside marriage, like the majority of married men in human history?

FDR an atheist?
https://calvin.edu/publications/christi ... -roosevelt

Barack Obama an atheist? A man who came to faith as an adult, not as a child?https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/natio ... ama-faith/

Do you really think the Baptist Harry Truman was an atheist? Because he dropped the bomb?

What makes these men atheists in your way of thinking - their sinful personal behavior or their worst political achievements?

I mean if that's true than let's just admit anybody who professes faith and sins is not really a person of faith, and do away with all religions forever because there is none who are without sin.

I'm not saying the latter bit couldn't be a good thing, but . . . I believe in the real world where we live, and which will undoubtedly persist for the foreseeable future given the numbers of humans globally who attest to faith, we exist in a construct where people who genuinely believe will nevertheless engage in human behavior that falls very short of the inspiration of the divine.

[Burning Petard]

Why do I say that, when all are sinners who have fallen short of the mark? Because they all put pragmatic personal ambition and their own balance of cost/benefit to be more important than the basic ethics/morality of their espoused religion. There was once a group that summed it up as 'kill them all and let God sort them out". Truman, absolutely . He compromised as fully as any of the political hacks in the temple as described in four gospels of the bible. Maybe I was unfair about Obama. Although now he looks like an adherent to the prosperity gospel. Did FDR welcome the refugee or send them on to Cuba? Who liberated the concentrations camps in California?

snailgate.

[Big RR]

While I won't judge the faith of any person (thankfully that's "not my job"), I agree that all fall short in this department. However, I do see two distinct groups among the "faithful", those who try to live according to the tenets of their faith and those who abandon those teachings whenever they feel like it (FWIW, I think atheists are divided the same way--those who try to do "good" (however they define it), and those who do not). But the thing I find intolerable is those in the latter group who try and parade their faith (or pretended faith) for personal gain, even though they do not try and practice it; Trump is a good example of this, but I think many of our presidents throughput history, especially recent history, have done this same thing. These are the people who would throw aside every semblance of morality if they saw a benefit in it--and we have seen it again and again with our leaders. Personally, I would rather have leader who is a self-proclaimed atheist that aspires to moral behavior (and yes, I understand that there is no morality without religion, but I reject that) than the snake oil salesmen hypocrites we have seen again and again.

[BoSoxGal]

Name a modern presidency more about the gospel of Christ than that of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Close in the running would be those of Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter (already acknowledged real man of faith), Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

Yes they all failed spectacularly in some areas of their personal lives and/or presidential policies, but they all did very substantial work to uplift their fellow citizens on the model espoused by their faith.

Sinners, all of them.

[Big RR]

Sinners,as are we all.

However, my point was that one does not have to be a man of faith to act morally. Other than Jimmy Carter who appeared to both proclaim and live his faith, I am not sure if any of them were "men of faith" or not. IMHO, I don't really think it matters, but I agree, some of their policies embraced and exemplified the teachings of Jesus. I'd much rather have an atheist who acts morally in a leadership position, than a lip-service only self proclaimed man of faith (like Trump) who acts reprehensibly. As Jesus said, "By their fruits shall ye know them".

[BoSoxGal]

I definitely agree but c’mon, this country is not ready to elect an openly avowed atheist. It can’t even elect a human with a uterus.

[Big RR]

True, but we can and do elect assholes like Trump; I hope one day we mature beyond that tendency.