USA & Israel launch illegal war on Iran

[Sue U]

if the war ends successfully

Hahahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahh *wheeze* hahahahahahahahahahhahhahaLOL!

Which American war has "ended successfully" in the last 80 years? What does "ending successfully" in Iran even look like, and how is that achieved? What if the Israelis have a different idea? What if Saudi Arabia/UAE/Qatar/Bahrain have even more different ideas? What was the immediate threat that justified this war? Why is Iran not interested in negotiating peace? How long can this war be sustained?

Stop being such a credulous tool. The Trump/Bibi war carries the distinct possibility of tipping the world into economic collapse when coupled with the looming AI bubble financial crisis (which, if/when it happens, will make 2008 look like a minor blip). What do you think happens then?

It must be heartwarming to the Iranian mullahs that you believe in the purity of their system. [BLAH BLAH BLAH IRRELEVANT IRRELEVANT STRAWMAN DEFLECTION WHATABOUTISM BULLSHIT]

Why do you insist on lying about what I said and just making up shit about what I "believe," especially when it's WRITTEN OUT RIGHT THERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE?

I asked a series of straightforward questions that you could have simply answered rather than deflect, divert and obfuscate the subject at hand. Is it because you can't answer those questions without looking like an ignoramus, a hypocrite or a fool?

[liberty]

I absolutely deny that I lie, and I don’t intentionally make things up. Sometimes I express my feelings and my opinions, which are just as valid as anyone else’s. As I said, I don’t lie. Based on your comments, it sounds as though you think, or are afraid, that the Iranian regime may be defeated, and apparently you believe that would be a bad thing. I don’t. I think it would be a good thing, even if it ends in civil‑war chaos; it would still be better than what they have now.

I think you have some lingering sympathies from the 1970s for a very evil system that murdered tens of millions in the 20th century, but I don’t think you personally are an evil person. If you were, I’d have nothing to do with you. Fortunately, most people are not evil; they are a tiny minority.

OK, which American wars ended successfully since World War II? Well, Korea; the Communists did not achieve their goal of taking South Korea. In Vietnam, our problem was timidity. We should have invaded North Vietnam; the war would have been over many years sooner, one way or the other.

And in Iraq, our mistake was the president listening to Colin Powell when he said, “If you break it, you own it.” That is very bad advice. We should have just broken it and left. As soon as Saddam Hussein had been taken care of, we should have pulled out the next day and let them fix their own problems.

Our goal in Iran is simply to weaken the Iranian regime to the point that it is no longer a major threat; that is achievable. It may require some extreme measures, like destroying their oil industry, but it can be done.

And yes, why is Iran not interested in negotiating peace? Because they were never interested in peace; they were just delaying. They were stalling for time.

And I have not been avoiding you. The fact is that I’m very curious, and you don’t always hold my interest. If something else grabs my attention, I’m gone. That’s just how I am. It doesn’t mean I can’t focus if I want to, but there’s no term paper due here, so I’m not terribly worried about it.

And you should know by now that your attempts to motivate me into responding by using manipulative language are a waste of time. Unless an individual is signing my paycheck, I really don’t care what they think of me.

[Bicycle Bill]

And in Iraq, our mistake was the president listening to Colin Powell when he said, “If you break it, you own it.” That is very bad advice. We should have just broken it and left. As soon as Saddam Hussein had been taken care of, we should have pulled out the next day and let them fix their own problems.

That is basically just removing one bad guy/warlord/bully so the second-worst bad guy/warlord/bully can take over.

-"BB"-

[Big RR]

Well, Korea; the Communists did not achieve their goal of taking South Korea. In Vietnam, our problem was timidity. We should have invaded North Vietnam; the war would have been over many years sooner, one way or the other.

OK, so no then. Korea wound up in a truce where both parties remained, probably something we could have helped negotiate at the outset without all the death and destruction. Vietnam was an out and out loss, not because we were timid, but because we had no business being there, backing regimes as brutal to the people as the one(s) we were fighting without any idea of an end game.

And in Iraq, our mistake was the president listening to Colin Powell when he said, “If you break it, you own it.” That is very bad advice. We should have just broken it and left. As soon as Saddam Hussein had been taken care of, we should have pulled out the next day and let them fix their own problems.

Well depends which Iraq you are talking about; Gulf War 1 (Bush Sr) was pretty much a wash, we did achieve the objective to get them out of Kuwait, but at a high costs. Gulf War 2 was a complete disaster, not because we didn't pull out in time (pulling out rarely achieves any objective as many teen lovers find out ) but because we went in based on an administration lie (that many dems caved to), again without any idea how to win the peace. If we had found the fabled WMD and then left, I would say it was a wash like Gulf War 1, but then you cannot find what was never there. And taking out a strongman without supporting a more benevolent and democratic (small d) alternative never works. And FWIW, wrecking a place and leaving without any help hardly wins you friends or allies--just hatred.

And yes, why is Iran not interested in negotiating peace? Because they were never interested in peace; they were just delaying. They were stalling for time.

Shouldn't that have just been the few more weeks they needed to get nuclear weapons, not decades they have delayed? But don't worry, like in the 80s, 90s, and onwards they are just a few weeks away (and maybe one day we will find the cache of WMDs Sadam had as well ). You just buy the bullshit.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Let me help you:

I absolutely deny that I lie, and I don’t intentionally make things up.

Based on your comments, it sounds as though you think, or are afraid, that the Iranian regime may be defeated, and apparently you believe that would be a bad thing.

That would be lie number one because it is in NO WAY "based on (Sue's) comments" but is (as she put it earlier) " just making up shit"

I think you have some lingering sympathies from the 1970s for a very evil system that murdered tens of millions in the 20th century

That is "making up shit" number two. Or maybe simply making up number 2. I'll give you a pass on "I think".

It must be heartwarming to the Iranian mullahs that you believe in the purity of their system.

See now that's another lie. You make a categorical statement about what another person believes based on nothing but your own invention which you then pass off as coming from that person. So that's making up shit too.

You really are not nearly as stupid as you make yourself appear with this kind of nonsense

[Sue U]

You really are not nearly as stupid as you make yourself appear with this kind of nonsense

Don't count on it.

[liberty]

Sue said, "Hahahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahh *wheeze* hahahahahahahahahahhahhahaLOL!

Which American war has "ended successfully" in the last 80 years? What does "ending successfully" in Iran even look like, and how is that achieved? What if the Israelis have a different idea? What if Saudi Arabia/UAE/Qatar/Bahrain have even more different ideas? What was the immediate threat that justified this war? Why is Iran not interested in negotiating peace? How long can this war be sustained?

Stop being such a credulous tool. The Trump/Bibi war carries the distinct possibility of tipping the world into economic collapse when coupled with the looming AI bubble financial crisis (which, if/when it happens, will make 2008 look like a minor blip). What do you think happens then"?

This is a question; doesn’t that sound like she wants the current religious government of Iran to survive? To me, it also sounds like she will do whatever she can to help it survive. As I see it, not only does she want the mullahs’ government to survive, but she also wants it to preserve its potential to develop nuclear weapons. That’s how I see it. However, for the sake of full disclosure, I have to admit that, because of my Cold War experiences, and hers, I may not be the most objective observer. Being on different sides of the Cold War at an early age does affect one’s perspective.

[MajGenl.Meade]

This is a question; doesn’t that sound like she wants the current religious government of Iran to survive?

This is an answer; no, it most definitely does not. What twisted lens do you use to comprehend English?

To me, it also sounds like she will do whatever she can to help it survive. As I see it, not only does she want the mullahs’ government to survive, but she also wants it to preserve its potential to develop nuclear weapons. That’s how I see it.

No it doesn't, no she doesn't, no she doesn't. Not one of your bizarre statements is supported by the words you claim to be reading (sic) and thinking (sic) about:

Which American war has "ended successfully" in the last 80 years? What does "ending successfully" in Iran even look like, and how is that achieved? What if the Israelis have a different idea? What if Saudi Arabia/UAE/Qatar/Bahrain have even more different ideas? What was the immediate threat that justified this war? Why is Iran not interested in negotiating peace? How long can this war be sustained?

Now those are questions - real questions - important questions - not one of which is a position statement supporting your silly remarks. Why do you do this clown act?

[Burning Petard]

I agree that they are important questions. Let me take a crack at the 80 year question. I just finished reading a recent book called "Family of Spies" by Christine Kuehn. It is 'true' and about a German family with ties to the very highest leaders of the Nazi government and that family participation in providing information to the Japanese government about the US military in Hawaii, particularly Pearl Harbor. Two weeks ago I attended a lecture by an American historian who specializes in the details of events in Munich in 1918 to 1944. Based on those two sources of information specifically, but integrating other general experiences I have had during my lifetime, I would push that 80 year date back to 1917--nearly 110 years. My conclusion--Successful wars for the USofA during that period--Zero, None, Nada. Modern war produces no success, only degrees of lesser failures. Sport figure of speech are commonly used now to describe these events. Modern war is like a kind of automobile contest called 'Demolition Derby' To avoid absolute total destruction is not what I would call 'success'.

snailgate.

[Scooter]

Tell me again how these are not the actions of a totalitarian state. The government is now threatening the licenses of broadcasters who don't provide only favorable coverage of the war.

[liberty]

OK, let’s cut through the clutter, wipe the blackboard clean, and start over with just one question:

Do you or anyone on this board, the temporary US President notwithstanding, want the current Iranian government to survive? Would that be a good thing, or would power to the Iranian people be a better option?

Will there be an answer to this question, or will there be the sound of crickets, is courage in short supply here?

[Scooter]

Everyone here wishes that every country in the world would become a stable, democratic state.

The issue, as recent experience in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. have shown, is that bombing the crap out of them doesn't typically lead to that result.

Did you imagine that expressing support for a democratic Iran would somehow automatically translate into support for Trump's wag the dog war?

Simple minds always look for simplistic solutions.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Everyone here wishes that every country in the world would become a stable, democratic state.

And do you (lib) believe that the above wish is the same thing as cheering on Trump's dick-waving aerial assault on Iran?
Because those two things are not the same at all.

We can hope that the current thuggish regime in Iran will (just like the current thuggish regime in the USA) fade into the dustbin of history.

As Scooter wrote, bombing any country has not yet ever had the effect of bringing about a jolly nice crowd of leaders beloved of the people in their own country and across the world.

Try this one. Is assassinating a U.S. president a valid approach to correcting the direction in which this country is moving?
If "no", then how is assassinating any number of leaders in any other country a valid approach to same?

If "yes" then expect some of the Bugeye/Hesgeth minions to be knocking on (down) your door

[Big RR]

And FWIW, do you think the current administration wants to give power the the Iranian people to choose their leaders? More than 70 years of US foreign policy has shown we rarely leave democracies in place of the governments we topple, usually it's just brutal dictatorships friendly to the business interests of the US. What's more, the Iranian people, having been on the receiving end of that policy (from the US unconditional support of the brutal regime of the Shah onward), I would bet that most Iranians, if they had any choice, would not want a government having a close relationship to the US, something that would not be tolerated by the current administration. So the current military incursion will not and cannot bring about what you suggest.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Do you or anyone on this board, the temporary US President notwithstanding, want the current Iranian government to survive? Would that be a good thing, or would power to the Iranian people be a better option?

I assume you mean the recently deposed Iranian government. No. Nor the Khomenei lot nor, for that matter, the Shah etc. Britain and the US might be regretting deposing the last democratically elected PM back in 1953.

Look what happened in Iraq and Libya. For all their faults, Saddam and Gadaffi held their countries together in the face of huge and continuing international pressure. Look at what has happened to those countries since 'liberation.' Libya is a gigantic mess and Iraq is not a lot better.

Power to the Iranian people - yes. But that does not grow out of the barrel of a US gun. Certainly there are some who welcome the US presence. But there is a new generation who will be enemies forever; and future generations will have to deal with it.