"14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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Lord Jim
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"14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Lord Jim »

Obama, Democrats not ready to play 14th Amendment card with debt ceiling

By Zachary A. Goldfarb, Published: July 6

Law professors, Democratic senators and liberal commentators have recently raised a tantalizing possibility for ending the congressional wrangling over raising the federal limit on borrowing:

President Obama could simply declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional and be done with it.

Advocates of this approach cite the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, which states that the “validity of the public debt of the United States . . . shall not be questioned.”

On Wednesday at a White House question-and-answer session held via the Web service Twitter, Obama said the debate over raising the $14.3 trillion debt ceiling shouldn’t become a constitutional question.

“I don’t think we should even get to the constitutional issue. Congress has a responsibility to make sure we pay our bills. We’ve always paid them in the past,” Obama said. “The notion that the U.S. is going to default on its debt is just irresponsible.”

But many Republicans have said they will not vote to raise the debt ceiling, and Obama is struggling to strike a deal with Congress that would get enough Republican and Democratic votes to raise the limit.

Obama’s team has warned that it needs to get an agreement done by July 22 so Congress has time to pass legislation by Aug. 2. If the debt ceiling isn’t raised by then, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner has warned that the U.S. government will default on its debt. That, he says, would have severe consequences for the economy.

The constitutional provision at issue — Section 4 of the 14th Amendment — is a post-Civil War invention. The North had borrowed heavily to finance the Civil War, and it wanted to make sure that the Southern states reintegrating into the Union wouldn’t try to shed responsibility for the nation’s debt.

“The purpose of that clause was to prevent the political branches from using default or repudiation as a political threat,” said Jack Balkin, a constitutional law professor at Yale Law School. “It was designed to prevent this kind of gamesmanship.”

Geithner underscored the Constitution’s requirement that the government meet its obligations at a question-and-answer session in late May. He pulled out a pocket copy of the Constitution and read the relevant passage, though he did not use it to suggest that the president should bypass Congress.

Nobody in the White House has since suggested that Obama is considering invoking the constitutional argument if Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling. And White House spokeswoman Amy Brundage said Wednesday night, “Despite suggestions to the contrary, the 14th Amendment is not a fail-safe that would allow the government to avoid defaulting on its obligations.”

But that hasn’t stopped commentators — and even a few Democratic senators — from raising the possibility.

Many law professors say that Obama would have to do a few things before he tried to declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional. For starters, he’d have to use the government’s available resources to cover obligations for as long as possible. That might include using existing tax revenues and selling the nation’s gold.

There’s also a question of what constitutes a debt under the Constitution — for example, whether it includes Social Security and Medicare payments or government contracts.

But if all measures to meet the nation’s obligations were exhausted, Obama would be “entitled to take whatever measures are necessary to pay . . . our debt at all times,” said Gerard N. Maglioc­ca, a law professor at Indiana University.

That might require instituting new taxes or issuing more debt, regardless of what Congress says, according to Magliocca, who noted this is a little-researched aspect of constitutional law.

Larry Rosenthal, a professor at Chapman University School of Law, said he doubts the argument that Obama could declare the debt limit unconstitutional. The debt ceiling, according to Rosenthal, limits the president’s ability to issue more debt. It doesn’t say that the existing debt is invalid. So if the president runs out of borrowing authority, he must find other ways — including suspending government programs — to pay the debt.

“What the government can’t do under the 14th Amendment is repudiate a debt that’s been authorized by law. It can’t say, ‘I’m not going to pay,’ ” Rosenthal said.

Rosenthal said a more persuasive argument is that the agreement in April to fund the government through the remainder of the 2011 fiscal year implicitly increased the debt ceiling. By passing that agreement, Congress essentially instructed Obama to spend money in the coming months. To pay for programs Congress authorized, the government will have to borrow money.

“It’s basically an order to the executive — pay this money,” Rosenthal said. Even if the debt ceiling would block him from doing so, “when two laws are in conflict, the more recent law is understood to supercede the first law.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html

This seems to me like a very high risk and untested road to be taking with something as important as this...

Even if he were able to buy time with this, for months (or at least weeks, assuming the SC would take this up on an expedited basis) the question of whether or not the US would default on it's debt in a sudden and dramatic fashion based on how the Court rules would hang over the country, probably having almost as negative an effect as a default itself.
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Crackpot
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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I suspect it's the "ace in the hole" last ditch action if our lawmakers continue their obstinant coward streak.

Its an option to be sure but an option that will have many unintended consequences.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Sue U
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Sue U »

Why not let those teabagger idiots go ahead and crash the country? The GOP would totally own this disaster for the 2012 elections. You wanna play hardball? Fuck you.
GAH!

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Lord Jim
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Lord Jim »

oooh....
Why not let those teabagger idiots go ahead and crash the country? The GOP would totally own this disaster for the 2012 elections. You wanna play hardball? Fuck you.
Looks like Sue had a big bowl of Timster Flakes for breakfast this morning... :D
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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Sue U wrote:Why not let those teabagger idiots go ahead and crash the country? The GOP would totally own this disaster for the 2012 elections. You wanna play hardball? Fuck you.
mostly because I have a house being Built that I won't be able to lock the intrest rate down on until After the drop dead date for raising the debt celing abd I'd like to be able to pa a reasonable rate for the place.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:Looks like Sue had a big bowl of Timster Flakes for breakfast this morning... :D
I'm just sick and tired of the namby-pamby can't-we-all-just-get-along okay-then-i'll-capitulate attitude of the Administration. The GOP has spent the last two and a half years throwing a hissy fit, and now their own know-nothing claque has trapped them in a Mexican stand-off. Too bad, so sad, cry me a fuckin river.

*Spit*
GAH!

Andrew D
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Andrew D »

In the long term, we might be better off if the Republicans were to win everything in 2012.

For four years, life would suck. That's what Republican policies do.

But after that, the Republican party would be where it belongs -- in the political wilderness -- for the next four decades. So we could actually make progress.
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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I thought that was what happened in '06 and '08?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Long Run
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Long Run »

Andrew D wrote:
For four years, life would suck. That's what Republican policies do.
Probably be two years, if life sucks. Just like when the Democratic policies get implemented and life sucks as in 1993-94, 2009-10.

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Long Run
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Long Run »

As for raising the debt ceiling, this is a spending issue, which is within Congress's purview. There is no doubt the U.S. should pay its debts, and probably has to under the Constitution. The question is, do we pay our debts and keep spending at whatever level, or do we pay our debts and drastically cut programs because the debt ceiling is not raised.

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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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to be fair 09-10 not much got implemented as a Democratic congress managed to dealock itself as they were split between the "blue dog" moderates and the far left fringe. '10 fixed that. no more (ok very few) moderates. Just a bunch of ideological morons.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Long Run
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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Crackpot wrote:to be fair 09-10 not much got implemented as a Democratic congress managed to dealock itself as they were split between the "blue dog" moderates and the far left fringe. '10 fixed that. no more (ok very few) moderates. Just a bunch of ideological morons.
??? Healthcare Reform, the "stimulus" pork-barrell deal, end of don't ask don't tell, (over)regulation of mortgage industry (in reaction to the under-regulation), stem-cell research, auto bailout, cash for clunkers, Kagan and Sotomayor, reversed Bush admin on numerous environmental issues, etc. They did a lot in two years, at least that's how it seems to me.

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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Crackpot »

Healthcare reform - nation Wide Romney care when they could have got Single payer if they had the balls.

Stimulus. Half assed non focused hairbrained scheme by anyones standard.

Stem cell research. ?

Auto Bailout Started under Bush and is Just about finished now and is probalby the one thing they got right. (I really thought they'd fuck it up)

Cash for Clunkers - one of the fairly decent stimulus programs

Kagan and Sotamayor. Two Moderate-lefts for a moderate-left and a far leftist?

Reversal of Bush on Environment? the Bush admin reversed a shitload of previous environmental issues often going even farther than proponents even wanted.

Sorry this Just hasn't been the Leftist free for all that Republicans like to paint it as.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Andrew D
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Andrew D »

Long Run wrote:
Andrew D wrote:
For four years, life would suck. That's what Republican policies do.
Probably be two years, if life sucks. Just like when the Democratic policies get implemented and life sucks as in 1993-94, 2009-10.
I think that if the Republicans win everything -- Presidency, House, and Senate -- in 2012, the election results in 2016 will look a lot like the election results of 1932. And subsequent elections will follow that pattern. And that will be a good thing.
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Sue U
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Sue U »

Unfortunately, Andrew, the economy in 2016 will also look a lot like the economy of 1932.
GAH!

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Gob
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Gob »

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds... [we will] have no time to think, no means of calling our mis-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow sufferers... And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for [another ]... til the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery... And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."

- Thomas Jefferson
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Rick
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

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Yet he used Tax money to make the Louisiana Purchase...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Lord Jim
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Re: "14th Amendment Option" On The Debt Ceiling?

Post by Lord Jim »

I'm just sick and tired of the namby-pamby can't-we-all-just-get-along okay-then-i'll-capitulate attitude of the Administration.
The funny thing is ("funny ironic" not "funny ha ha") that from the day he took Office until the mid-term elections, Obama paid lip service to "bipartisan compromise" while the reality was that he sub-contracted the whole of his domestic policy to Pelosi and Co.....

Since the Lame Duck session after last fall's elections, he really has been trying to reach bi-partisan compromise...(with some success, and not out of the goodness of his heart....but in order to bring back some of the independent voter support he was hemorrhaging....)

And now that he finally is willing to compromise, there are some in my party who want none of it...
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