Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

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Obama's job package

Poll ended at Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:52 pm

A good plan, which will work.
0
No votes
A good plan, but may not work.
0
No votes
A good plan which will not be passed.
3
100%
A bad plan which will be passed.
0
No votes
A bad plan which will not be passed.
0
No votes
A bad plan which, will not work.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

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Gob
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Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by Gob »

Here, four economists suggest what options they think the Fed chairman should be mulling ahead of his Jackson Hole speech.

Robert di Clemente, Chief US economist, Citigroup

"Jackson Hole is traditionally a retreat where people are supposed to think about longer term issues.

I hope his speech will take a step back, particularly in light of recent [downward] GDP revisions.

We are in a post-bubble economy, and the typical pattern is a very long, protracted, difficult recovery, where employment does not return to its previous peak.

One of the major problems we face is lack of demand in the economy.

There has been a rise in the savings rate that has persisted since the recession.

People have very low income expectations - typically they expect incomes to stagnate.

Businesses are in reasonably good shape. They could be spending more on capital equipment and hiring, but they're concerned about the level of demand going forward.

Financial firms are eager to lend, but the problem is people are not eager to come in the door.

[Another major problem is] a big mismatch in the jobs market.

Firms say they cannot fill 40% of job openings because they cannot find people with the skills.

Meanwhile, 40% of job losses have been in three industries - housing, autos and finance - that structurally are not going to come back to where they were before.

Policies haven't been up to the task, not just because they are of limited effectiveness, but because you have to reach consensus.

If Congress were willing to tackle some of the problems of long-term fiscal policy, there would be a lot of scope for short-term stimulus. But there is a deep ideological divide.

Monetary policy at best is limited. But what it can do is provide an element of support to financial conditions.

The benefits of QE are more limited now, not only because interest rates are lower, but because monetary policy was far more effective when markets were dysfunctional [in 2008-09].

The previous QE succeeded where it was most relevant, which is by raising inflation.

But now inflation if anything is slightly above where they'd like, and that raises the hurdle [for doing more QE]."
Nariman Behravesh, Chief economist, IHS

"There is a parallel with Japan, which is that in the wake of a financial crisis the healing process takes time.

We're going through a period when growth will be extremely sluggish and choppy.

Politicians would like to compress this. But it takes three-to-five years, maybe even longer.

Another parallel is that one thing we have not done is deal with the housing market problem.

There is still a massive overhang of housing debt, which is a festering sore in the US economy.

The big difference with Japan is monetary policy.

The Bank of Japan denied and delayed [in the 1990s slump]. But the Fed has learned from Japan.

QE2 came under a lot of criticism. But it was like an insurance policy to prevent a double dip.

The same thing is going to happen this time.

What the Fed can do is lower long-term interest rates even more. It won't be a huge boost, but it will help.

The great thing about this Fed is that it is not shy of more unorthodox moves.

I think in the speech [Ben Bernanke] will leave himself tons of room for manoeuvre."
Prof David Blanchflower, Dartmouth College, New Hampshire

Mr Blanchflower is also a former member of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee.

"Fiscally, the US is doing exactly the wrong thing.

The US faces a liquidity trap. [The federal government] should be doing huge fiscal stimulus to reverse that problem.

But they're not. So monetary policy is the only show in town.

How effective it is depends on how much of it you do.

People argue that QE2 didn't work. But what is the counterfactual? What would life have been like without it?

I don't think the Fed did enough and would argue to do more. What's the alternative? Do nothing?

The question is how much should they do this time? One trillion, maybe two?

It is hard to say what the right amount is, because it is untested.

The logic of what [Ben Bernanke]'s trying to do, is to raise asset prices, lower borrowing costs and depress the currency.

The pound appreciated against the dollar since the Fed's QE2, putting the UK at a competitive disadvantage.

So the Bank of England will have to respond, because now we are in a world of competitive QE."
George Magnus, Senior economic advisor to UBS Investment Bank

"There is a crisis of capitalism. We are facing fundamental contradictions.

The [1980s] supply-side reforms, aided and abetted by outsourcing and globalisation, mean we can now produce as much as we want.

But real wages have been stagnant for 20-plus years.

And now the credit spigot [tap] has been turned off. People don't want to take on more debt, and we have this demand deficiency problem.

QE3, if it looks just like QE2, won't achieve much.

It will force down long-term rates more. But I'm scratching my head thinking what could you achieve by pushing rates down another [0.4%-0.5%]?
Stoking inflation to erode the value of debt

I think there is a case for a much more radical step of targeting GDP: It's a covert way to lift inflation.

They should print as much [new money] as it takes to get growth of nominal GDP to 4%-5%.

Right now it looks like [nominal GDP] is stagnating. If it starts falling, the US could fall into a debt trap.

At the moment there is no consensus on the [Fed's policy committee] for a radical shift in policy target.

And politically there would be a big problem with Congress, where many blame [Ben Bernanke] for the problems that the US is in.

But if the US slips back into another contraction - which there is a 50:50 chance of in the next six months - then... policy can change again.

[Another option is] targeted monetary policy, to do something about mortgages.

The Fed could help debtors refinance on very favourable rates.

We have to get money into the hands of those who will do more spending."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14644823
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

rubato
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Re: Four sage men

Post by rubato »

People who were paying attention saw that Bernanke's speech was on Friday, four days ago.

People who were paying attention also already saw this:


http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2 ... on-europe/
________________
Lagarde leads from the front on Europe: Going into the Jackson Hole conference, everybody was breathlessly awaiting Friday’s speech from Ben Bernanke, which turned out to be incredibly boring. The most important speech of the meeting, by far, came on Saturday, and came from the new head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde. In decidedly undiplomatic prose she came right out and said what needed to be done:

Two years ago, it became clear that resolving the crisis would require two key rebalancing acts—a domestic demand switch from the public to the private sector, and a global demand switch from external deficit to external surplus counties… the actual progress on rebalancing has been timid at best, while the downside risks to the global economy are increasing….

I’ll start with Europe…. Banks need urgent recapitalization…. One option would be to mobilize EFSF or other European-wide funding to recapitalize banks directly, which would avoid placing even greater burdens on vulnerable sovereigns…

The United States needs… future consolidation—involving both revenue and expenditure…. At the same time, growth is necessary for fiscal credibility…. Second—halting the downward spiral of foreclosures, falling house prices and deteriorating household spending. This could involve more aggressive principal reduction programs for homeowners, stronger intervention by the government housing finance agencies, or steps to help homeowners take advantage of the low interest rate environment.

The diagnosis of what needs to be done in the U.S. is spot-on…. But it’s Lagarde’s diagnosis of her native Europe which is proving highly controversial. Anonymous “officials”, quoted in the FT, rapidly said that she had it all wrong…. [But] anybody who knows anything about banking knows that the distinction between a liquidity problem and a solvency problem is not nearly as clear-cut as this makes out. Indeed, if there weren’t any worries about European banks’ solvency, then they wouldn’t have any kind of liquidity problems…. And if the markets are worried about a bank’s solvency, then that bank’s solvency is what must be addressed — perception is reality in such matters…. Where Lagarde sees a huge systemic problem, European officials, it seems, still thinks it can patch things up by triaging the worst banks and applying band-aids….

[T]he FT does manage to find a sliver of a silver lining: Lagarde, they write, “has said publicly what most policymakers have avoided addressing since the crisis began”. Maybe she’s just leading from the front, here: even if policymakers don’t embrace her position immediately, they might come round to her way of thinking as the world’s developed economies continue to stagnate and financial markets continue to fret over a possible sovereign crisis…

-------------------------------

yrs,
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Re: Four sage men

Post by rubato »

What Krugman was saying in January 2009 and Lagarde was saying a few days ago is a chorous:

___________________________
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/09/m ... arket.html

Martin Wolf: We must listen to what bond markets are telling us: What is to be done? To find an answer, listen to the markets. They are saying: borrow and spend, please. Yet those who profess faith in the magic of the markets are most determined to ignore the cry. The fiscal skies are falling, they insist.

HSBC forecasts that the economies of high-income countries will now grow by 1.3 per cent this year and 1.6 per cent in 2012. Bond markets are at least as pessimistic: US 10-year Treasuries yielded 1.98 per cent on Monday, their lowest for 60 years; German Bunds yielded 1.85 per cent; even the UK could borrow at 2.5 per cent. These yields are falling fast towards Japanese levels. Incredibly yields on index-linked bonds were close to zero in the US, 0.12 per cent in Germany and 0.27 per cent in the UK.

Are the markets mad? Yes, insist the wise folk: the biggest risk is not slump, as markets fear, but default. Yet if markets get the prices of such governments’ bonds so wrong, why should one ever take them seriously? The massive fiscal deficits of today, particularly in countries where huge financial crises occurred, are not the result of deliberate Keynesian stimulus: even in the US, the ill-targeted and inadequate stimulus amounted to less than 6 per cent of gross domestic product or, at most, a fifth of the actual deficits over three years. The latter were largely the result of the crisis: governments let fiscal deficits rise, as the private sector savagely retrenched.

To have prevented this would have caused a catastrophe. As Richard Koo of Nomura Research has argued, fiscal deficits help the private sector deleverage. That is precisely what is happening in the US and UK (see chart at bottom). In the US, the household sector moved into financial surplus after house prices started to fall, while the business sector moved into surplus in the crisis. Foreigners are persistent suppliers of capital. This has left the government as borrower of last resort. The UK picture is not so different, except that the business sector has been in persistent surplus.

So long as the private and foreign sectors run huge surpluses (despite the ultra-low interest rates), some governments must find it easy to borrow. The only question is: which governments? Investors seem to choose one safe haven per currency area: the US federal government in the dollar area; the UK government in the sterling area; and the German government in the eurozone. Meanwhile, among the currency areas, adjustment occurs far more via the exchange rates than through interest rates on safe-haven debts.

The larger the surpluses of the private sectors (and so the bigger the offsetting fiscal deficits), the faster the former can pay down their debts. Fiscal deficits are helpful, therefore, in a balance-sheet contraction, not because they return the economy swiftly to health, but because they promote the painfully slow healing.

One objection – laid out by Harvard’s Kenneth Rogoff in the Financial Times in August – is that people will fear higher future taxes and save still more. I am unpersuaded: household savings have fallen in Japan. But there is a good answer: use cheap funds to raise future wealth and so improve the fiscal position in the long run. It is inconceivable that creditworthy governments would be unable to earn a return well above their negligible costs of borrowing, by investing in physical and human assets, on their own or together with the private sector….

Another noteworthy objection – grounded in the seminal work of Prof Rogoff and Carmen Reinhart of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington – is that growth slows sharply once public debt exceeds 90 per cent of GDP. Yet this is a statistical relationship, not an iron law. In 1815, UK public debt was 260 per cent of GDP. What followed? The industrial revolution.

What matters is how borrowing is used…. Contrary to conventional wisdom, fiscal policy is not exhausted. This is what Christine Lagarde, new managing director of the International Monetary Fund, argued at the Jackson Hole monetary conference last month. The need is to combine borrowing of cheap funds now with credible curbs on spending in the longer term. The need is no less for surplus countries with the ability to expand demand to do so. It is becoming ever clearer that the developed world is making Japan’s mistake of premature retrenchment during a balance-sheet depression, but on a more dangerous – far more global – scale. Conventional wisdom is that fiscal retrenchment will lead to resurgent investment and growth. An alternative wisdom is that suffering is good. The former is foolish. The latter is immoral.

Reconsidering fiscal policy is not all that is needed. Monetary policy still has an important role. So, too, do supply-side reforms, particularly changes in taxation that promote investment. So, not least, does global rebalancing. Yet now, in a world of excess saving, the last thing we need is for creditworthy governments to slash their borrowings. Markets are loudly saying exactly this. So listen.
______________________

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Gob
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Re: Four sage men

Post by Gob »

President Barack Obama will outline his eagerly awaited jobs plan later in an effort to boost the flagging US economy - and his re-election hopes.

In a rare address to a joint session of Congress, President Obama is expected to outline a $300bn (£185bn) package.

The main elements are tipped to be an extension of payroll tax cuts, and tax incentives for businesses to hire.

US unemployment, currently jammed at 9.1%, is expected to dominate the 2012 presidential election campaign.

Mr Obama will use his nationally televised speech at 19:00 EDT (23:00 GMT) to urge the passage of an American Jobs Act, which will be submitted to Congress next week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14841746
Predictions?

I predict that Obama will come up with a moderately sensible plan, which will be voted down by the republicans, rehashed in a dull as ditch-water and totally ineffective form, and when implemented will be killed by the bureaucratic inefficiency of the US government system. Following this the democrats will blame the republicans for interfering, the republicans will blame Obama for coming up with the plan, and the US population will continue to suffer unemployment and falling living conditions.

Call me Mr Cheerful.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Long Run
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Re: Four sage men

Post by Long Run »

Problem is that Obama is wandering around looking like a guy who doesn't know what to do. He appears to have a lot of likeable human qualities, but with a couple of exceptions, he doesn't seem to really know what he should be doing, and this is especially true on the economy. If he had done a public works project for the "stimulus" bill in 2009 -- like you indicate Australia did -- there would be far more real jobs and there would be real improvements in economic productivity as new bridges equals better transport, new buildings equals increased performance, and so on. But no, to his surprise at the time, there weren't a lot of "shovel ready" projects in 2009 -- you have to develop plans, get permits, go through bidding projects and that all takes time (but, of course, provides employment to people who do that kind of planning). So rather than go through that process, he decided to spend the discretionary stimulus money on illusion of green jobs and other pet projects in Congress.

So, in addition, to the built-in stimulus stabilizers during a recession, such as unemployment, food stamps, lower taxes, we had $800 billion temporary infusion dollars that didn't buy much in the long term. Any deficit spending is stimulative to some extent, but simply moves economic activity from the future to the current, so you want to be getting good value for your spending because it is going to reduce your economy when it comes time to pay back the loans. And, as we see, even a big country, can borrow only so much.

Add to the poor spending decisions, the regulatory effects of the healthcare reform (a nice lawyer and insurance company jobs bill) and environmental and financial, etc. Whether you like those things are not, one thing the added regulation is, is business unfriendly. Obama had a tough job to do and other than completing the financial bail out, he hasn't done much right on the economy. It endears him not at all that he seems to take no responsibility for his mistakes and continues to finger point.

My guess is that this next "big speech" will be given a big ho-hum, while most people watch the Green Bay-New Orleans football game and ignore the guy who can read a teleprompter better than any White House politician ever has.

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Gob
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Re: Four sage men

Post by Gob »

Well, here's the plan.
President Barack Obama on Thursday proposed a $US447 billion ($420 billion) package of tax cuts and spending measures aimed at spurring growth and hiring. Here are some of the key elements of his American Jobs Act, which he announced in a rare joint session of Congress:

Employee payroll tax holiday

Obama is proposing a $US175 billion one-year extension and expansion of the employee payroll tax holiday that would halve the tax rate to 3.1 per cent in 2012.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Employer payroll tax holiday

Obama is seeking $US65 billion to encourage small businesses to hire more workers. This includes halving employer payroll taxes to 3.1 per cent for the first $US5 million of a company's wage bill in 2012, which the administration says will reach 98 per cent of small businesses. He also wants a complete payroll tax holiday for increasing the size of the payroll by up to $US50 million above the prior year, either by hiring new workers or raising the salaries of the existing labor force.

Extending 100 per cent company expensing into 2012

At a cost of $US5 billion, Obama wants to extend a 100 per cent expensing tax break for companies, allowing them to immediately take a tax deduction for investment in new plant and equipment.

$US85 bln in aid for state and local governments

- $US35 billion to keep teachers, firefighters and police officers in their jobs, of which $US30 billion would go to schools and $US5 billion to police and firefighters.

- $US30 billion to modernize schools and community colleges.

- $US15 billion to rehabilitate and refurbish vacant and foreclosed homes.

- $US5 billion to help low-income youths and adult workers, supporting summer and year-round jobs for young people and support subsidized work for unemployed low-income workers.

Road, rail and aviation infrastructure spending

$US50 billion to invest in highways, transit, rail and aviation, including upgrading U.S. airports, supporting Nextgen Air Traffic modernization.

Infrastructure bank

$US10 billion to capitalize an infrastructure bank to leverage private and public infrastructure investment "without earmarks or traditional influence," the White House says.

Extending unemployment insurance, bridge to work


- $US49 billion for a one-year extension of long-term unemployment benefits that would otherwise expire, which the White House says prevents 6 million jobless Americans from losing benefits. Also, reforms to the jobless aid system and a "bridge to work" program to help get unemployed back to work.

- $US8 billion for tax credits for long-term unemployed.


http://www.businessday.com.au/business/ ... 5524950586
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Shoulda done some of that in his first "recovery" plan instead of stating "shovel ready" plans which only bailed out banks who will not lend to small businesses who are hte #1 employer in the USA.

Now he is playing to the unions, aka construction jobs, interstate roads, infrastructure, etc.

Many thought that was the first draft 2 years ago, but now!?!?!? Too little too late.

As I said in another thread, I am going to be making more than $50K less in my new job. That means spending $50K less per year (ok $30K less after taxes, but the gov now gets $20K less in taxes too). It's a zero sum game and the US gov has been playing a negative sum game for so long, it's too late. We are Greece with no EU to bail us out.

My Remington 600 Image
Is oiled and ready.

ETA
It was my cousins, uncles gun that he gave me after 15 years of non-use. I redid the stock and had the mechanism all redone at a local gunsmith. Had the scope raised so I could see the regular sight (I am only into scopes to spot the target. shooting I prefer the rifles sites).

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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by Scooter »

So $250 billion (more or less) in tax credits to people and businesses who would really benefit from them is bad policy that won't work, but $250 billion (more or less) to continue tax cuts to the uber-rich was good policy that will cause skyrocketing economic growth?
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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by dales »

oldr_n_wsr wrote: My Remington 600 Image
Is oiled and ready.

ETA
It was my cousins, uncles gun that he gave me after 15 years of non-use. I redid the stock and had the mechanism all redone at a local gunsmith. Had the scope raised so I could see the regular sight (I am only into scopes to spot the target. shooting I prefer the rifles sites).

Might I suggest this when the going gets REALLY rough:

Better for close range, the Stryker 12

Image

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

rubato
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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by rubato »

President Barack Obama on Thursday proposed a $US447 billion ($420 billion) package of tax cuts and spending measures aimed at spurring growth and hiring. Here are some of the key elements of his American Jobs Act, which he announced in a rare joint session of Congress:

Employee payroll tax holiday

Obama is proposing a $US175 billion one-year extension and expansion of the employee payroll tax holiday that would halve the tax rate to 3.1 per cent in 2012.
I'm not happy about cutting funding for SS although if it is short-term the benefit goes to the right people, reduces poverty, and will be a small but effective stimulus.
Employer payroll tax holiday

Obama is seeking $US65 billion to encourage small businesses to hire more workers. This includes halving employer payroll taxes to 3.1 per cent for the first $US5 million of a company's wage bill in 2012, which the administration says will reach 98 per cent of small businesses. He also wants a complete payroll tax holiday for increasing the size of the payroll by up to $US50 million above the prior year, either by hiring new workers or raising the salaries of the existing labor force.
Useless and counter-productive. Businesses only hire when they have or are expecting their businesses to expand. This will add to profits for the "small business" owners (who can make millions per year based on Repuglican usage of the term) and add almost no jobs.
Extending 100 per cent company expensing into 2012

At a cost of $US5 billion, Obama wants to extend a 100 per cent expensing tax break for companies, allowing them to immediately take a tax deduction for investment in new plant and equipment.
Little benefit but little cost. People build new plants when they expect increasing demand, not when costs are shaved slightly.
$US85 bln in aid for state and local governments

- $US35 billion to keep teachers, firefighters and police officers in their jobs, of which $US30 billion would go to schools and $US5 billion to police and firefighters.

- $US30 billion to modernize schools and community colleges.

- $US15 billion to rehabilitate and refurbish vacant and foreclosed homes.

- $US5 billion to help low-income youths and adult workers, supporting summer and year-round jobs for young people and support subsidized work for unemployed low-income workers.
A direct benefit in reducing the loss of state jobs. Overall positive.
Road, rail and aviation infrastructure spending

$US50 billion to invest in highways, transit, rail and aviation, including upgrading U.S. airports, supporting Nextgen Air Traffic modernization.
A direct benefit. We need to invest in infrastructure anyway so this is a win-win.
Infrastructure bank

$US10 billion to capitalize an infrastructure bank to leverage private and public infrastructure investment "without earmarks or traditional influence," the White House says.


What?

Extending unemployment insurance, bridge to work

- $US49 billion for a one-year extension of long-term unemployment benefits that would otherwise expire, which the White House says prevents 6 million jobless Americans from losing benefits. Also, reforms to the jobless aid system and a "bridge to work" program to help get unemployed back to work.

- $US8 billion for tax credits for long-term unemployed.

A no-brainer. One of the few things keeping the poverty level from rising (thanks BushCo and Repuglicans for increasing poverty to the highest level in decades!) has been extending unemployment benefits.




http://www.businessday.com.au/business/ ... 5524950586
[/quote][/quote]

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Gob
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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by Gob »

Image
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by The Hen »

Double 'Fnaaar'!

:lol: :lol:
Bah!

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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by BoSoxGal »

You know what they say about black Presidents. ;)
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Four sage men (Now with jobs package poll)

Post by loCAtek »

They have got to be doing it on purpose;

Obama might pull out
By Dick Morris - 09/20/11 06:19 PM ET

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