Why leftests just don't get it

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Sue U
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:I found this interesting:
There are four attitudes that can be taken toward capitalism.
First, the extreme conservative view: Capitalism is irreproachable, and to utter even a word of criticism—let alone attempt to restrain it—is apostasy. A great many people hold this view. Nonetheless, it is the most wrongheaded possible position, because it is the most at odds with the truth. Capitalism is essentially unethical, and therefore continuing criticism and restraint of it is both necessary and salutary.

Second, the extreme liberal view: Capitalism is pure evil that must be replaced with something else. There are actually only a few Americans who believe this, and they have nothing like the cultural power that people in the first group impute to them. Even those who call themselves socialists are really advocating a restrained form of capitalism that tries to redistribute part of the capitalist’s profits to the workers, and this approach is not nearly as effective as restraining capitalism before the profits are made. The manifest energy and productivity of capitalism make it impossible for many people to maintain this extreme position.

Third, the moderate conservative view: Capitalism is essentially ethical, but it can become unethical and even abusive in the hands of people of bad faith, so that it needs restraint under those aberrant circumstances. This view too is held by many Americans, and in fact by many who also believe the extreme conservative view—even though to hold both of them is self-contradictory. This conservative position is less wrongheaded than the extreme one. At least it recognizes the possibility that capitalism needs some restraint. But because it does not admit the truth that capitalism is essentially unjust, it is much too inclined to let capitalism barrel ahead without restraint—only to be surprised time after time when the consequences of its essential injustice come home to roost.

Fourth and last, the moderate liberal position: Capitalism is an indisputable engine of economic strength and prosperity that requires ongoing government regulation to restrain its inherent injustice. Of the four views, this is the only one that reflects the truth about capitalism. But because hardly any Americans understand that capitalism is essentially unjust, there are few who actually hold this position. Those who ought to be so inclined—namely, those who recognize that lifting government restraints always leads to impoverished workers and vast economic inequality—fall instead into a position that differs only in degree from the moderate conservative view. They agree with moderate conservatives that capitalism is essentially just, but corruptible. They disagree in seeing much more frequent and more dangerous aberrant behavior than moderate conservatives will admit.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/3 ... Capitalism

Obviously the author is an adherent of position four...

But if you take away his analysis, and just focus on his description of the four points of view, I think it's gives a reasonable summation of the thinking that differentiates the rightist, conservative, liberal and leftist schools of thought.

Though I disagree with a lot of it, (it was written by a liberal after all... 8-) ) I recommend the full article. It's well written and gives an interesting perspective.
The writer admits that his description of a capitalist economy is oversimplified, which it clearly is, but I think his major points concerning its operation are correct. However, his description of the "extreme liberal" position is seriously lacking. He conflates what should be the traditional socialist perspective with a rather tepid form of social democrat policy that is really the same as his "moderate liberal" approach, and even notes that "this approach is not nearly as effective as restraining capitalism before the profits are made." Moreover, even among genuine socialists, capitalism is not viewed as "pure evil." It is merely one system of ordering the means of production and the profits of labor; although it depends on the inherent inequality in power between capital and labor necessary to produce profit, it is (as rubato notes) essentially amoral, its only concern being the maximization of profits for the capitalist who "owns" the means of production.

The rise of capitalism in the 19th and 20th Centuries does not mean it is the only socio-politico-economic system that may be useful or even desirable; it is simply the current dominant form of exchange activity, replacing mercantilism, which supplanted feudalism, etc. etc. back into hstory. But the operation of any economic system -- and in particular, the question of whose benefit the system is operated for -- depends on societal power relationships that can be shaped by the form and operation of government.
GAH!

dgs49
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by dgs49 »

The terms, "Liberal" and "Conservative" have been greatly abused and distorted simply because people who think OF THEMSELVES as being in those categories have their own sets of principles and beliefs, and conversely, they have their own views of the principles and beliefs of the other camp(s). Ultimately, those terms (as are all categories) are just excuses to lump large groups of possibly divergent people into pigeonholes for discussion.

The bottom line is that today's conservatives accept the traditional values that prevailed in the U.S. prior to, say, 1960, and today's liberals deem it virtuous to challenge every past value and assumption, and discard those that they find are not justifiable, based on their "enlightened" world view. A few examples are in order.

The Conservative view of Criminal Justice is that the police and courts are risking their lives every day for the betterment of society. Their decisions and conclusions should be accepted unless there is clear evidence that something is amiss. The Liberal view is that the police are basically Fascists who get their jollies by exploiting people who are not White and middle class, and nothing the police do should be accepted without close examination and skepticism.

The Conservative view of taxation is that MOST people work hard to earn their money, and the Government should not be allowed to take any more from the populace than is absolutely necessary to conduct the legitimate, constitutional activities that Government must undertake. The Liberal view of taxation is that MOST people who earn a lot of money do so by means that are either unethical, illegal, or totally the result of good fortune. Therefore, the tax code is mainly a device for transferring the wealth of the "rich" malefactors to the "deserving poor." Also, Liberals like to work in government and they favor a huge government for the purpose of keeping the Bad Guys from doing evil things, and providing wonderful money and benefits to the "deserving poor."

The Conservative view of Freedom of Speech is that the First Amendment protects the right to criticize the government, fairly and truthfully, without reprisals from government. The Liberal view of Freedom of Speech is that the more odious a form of speech is (e.g., pornography, graphic violence, inciting disgust of other people), the more it is entitled to protection of the Government.

The Conservative view of Capitalism is that it is a wonderful institution that permits investors, inventors, and entrepreneurs to profit greatly (but without any guarantee) by their hard work, diligence, perseverence, and intelligent risk-taking. And if others can benefit from the Capitalist's success, so be it, but the Capitalist is entitled to purchase everything he needs (including human labor) at the lowest price possible. The Liberal view of Capitalism is that it is a system that was put in place to facilitate exploitation of the innocent and virtuous Poor by the Evil Rich. The Liberal view is that anything government can do to restrain Capitalists from reaping profits is a Good Thing. And if some Poor people benefit as well, that's even better.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by Joe Guy »

It's interesting that you wrote this...
dgs49 wrote:Ultimately, those terms (as are all categories) are just excuses to lump large groups of possibly divergent people into pigeonholes for discussion.
And then you did exactly that...

dgs49
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by dgs49 »

Of course.

Grim Reaper
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by Grim Reaper »

dgs49 wrote:The bottom line is that today's conservatives accept the traditional values that prevailed in the U.S. prior to, say, 1960, and today's liberals deem it virtuous to challenge every past value and assumption, and discard those that they find are not justifiable, based on their "enlightened" world view. A few examples are in order.
I see Captain Strawman is on duty again.

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Crackpot
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by Crackpot »

AKA nostalgia for a time that never existed. (say do we want to move to pre 1960 tax rates?)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Econoline
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by Econoline »

dgs49 wrote:The terms, "Liberal" and "Conservative" have been greatly abused and distorted simply because people who think OF THEMSELVES as being in those categories have their own sets of principles and beliefs, and conversely, they have their own views of the principles and beliefs of the other camp(s). Ultimately, those terms (as are all categories) are just excuses to lump large groups of possibly divergent people into pigeonholes for discussion.

The bottom line is that today's conservatives accept the traditional values that prevailed in the U.S. prior to, say, 1960, and today's liberals deem it virtuous to challenge every past value and assumption, and discard those that they find are not justifiable, based on their "enlightened" world view. A few examples are in order.

The Conservative view of Criminal Justice is that the police and courts are risking their lives every day for the betterment of society. Their decisions and conclusions should be accepted unless there is clear evidence that something is amiss. The Liberal view is that the police are basically Fascists who get their jollies by exploiting people who are not White and middle class, and nothing the police do should be accepted without close examination and skepticism.

The Conservative view of taxation is that MOST people work hard to earn their money, and the Government should not be allowed to take any more from the populace than is absolutely necessary to conduct the legitimate, constitutional activities that Government must undertake. The Liberal view of taxation is that MOST people who earn a lot of money do so by means that are either unethical, illegal, or totally the result of good fortune. Therefore, the tax code is mainly a device for transferring the wealth of the "rich" malefactors to the "deserving poor." Also, Liberals like to work in government and they favor a huge government for the purpose of keeping the Bad Guys from doing evil things, and providing wonderful money and benefits to the "deserving poor."

The Conservative view of Freedom of Speech is that the First Amendment protects the right to criticize the government, fairly and truthfully, without reprisals from government. The Liberal view of Freedom of Speech is that the more odious a form of speech is (e.g., pornography, graphic violence, inciting disgust of other people), the more it is entitled to protection of the Government.

The Conservative view of Capitalism is that it is a wonderful institution that permits investors, inventors, and entrepreneurs to profit greatly (but without any guarantee) by their hard work, diligence, perseverence, and intelligent risk-taking. And if others can benefit from the Capitalist's success, so be it, but the Capitalist is entitled to purchase everything he needs (including human labor) at the lowest price possible. The Liberal view of Capitalism is that it is a system that was put in place to facilitate exploitation of the innocent and virtuous Poor by the Evil Rich. The Liberal view is that anything government can do to restrain Capitalists from reaping profits is a Good Thing. And if some Poor people benefit as well, that's even better.
Fixed that for you, Dave.

(Hint: Try to limit yourself to articulating your own conservative views--about which you obviously know the most--and avoid articulating your distorted and ill-informed version of the views of liberals--about which you obviously don't know shit. Captain Strawman, indeed.)
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

rubato
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by rubato »

Historically, Conservatives were vehemently opposed to free trade and Capitalism. Like most modern beliefs they were taught by the patient instruction of Liberals and have now forgotten they ever thought otherwise.

yrs,
rubato

rubato
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Re: Why leftests just don't get it

Post by rubato »

"The Conservative view of Freedom of Speech is that the First Amendment protects the right to criticize the government, fairly and truthfully, without reprisals from government."

"fairly and truthfully" means that you can criticize Democrats in office even resorting to lying.

yrs,
rubato

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