Yet another school shooting

[rubato]

Anyone whose carelessness allows a gun to get into the hands of someone who kills with it should be charged with murder.

If a person were to use someone else's carelessly stored gun to defend someone that was trying to kill somebody, should the person who carelessly stored the gun be hailed as a hero?

Should implausible hypotheticals be treated like coherent argument?

Should someone who carelessly stores dynamite and it is used to stop a firestorm be hailed as a hero?

Is an accidentally beneficial outcome from a negligent act justification for it?

Are you drunk?

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

In a separate development, police in Oklahoma have arrested a teenager for allegedly plotting to shoot and bomb students at his school in Bartlesville. Sammie Eaglebear Chavez, 18, is said to have tried to convince other students to help him carry out an attack.

[Joe Guy]

Is an accidentally beneficial outcome from a negligent act justification for it?

Who is to blame for the tragic outcome from a negligent act?

The murderer or the person that had guns stolen from her and was killed?

Are you drunk?

Yes.

I haven't stopped drinking since I woke up this morning and put beer over my Cheerios...

urp!

edited to add a 'that' and subtract a 'the'.

[Miles]

With due respect to all here no matter which side of the fence you are on there is a hard fact that cannot be overlooked. No drastic gun control legislation will be forthcoming. Perhaps over a period of 20 to 30 years small victories in changing the current laws and regulations may occur. Public indignation and outraged frustration will avail nothing. Do I find the current event acceptable? Absolutely NOT!!!

I have, in the past, had the unfortunate experience of attending to a bus full of young school children involved in a traffic accident. Fourty small helpless children were the victims of a drunk driver, the bus driver in which they rode. There are still school busses and I have little doubt that there are still some drunks behind the wheel.

That was more than 25 years ago. I realize that much has been done by responsibile bus lines to insure that does not happen, however reality rears it's ugly head every now and then to prove that total compliance is just not possible.

The facts of the current tragity are being released and once again the spectre of mental health is in the forefront. I have read in some of the posts here that concern themselves with the lack of identification and intervention of those in need of help before the melt down.

While I agree that there need to be much more stringent laws concerning obtaining certain weapons as well as stricter enforcement of existing laws. I also think our society needs to remove the stigma that follows people who admit that they need pcychological help much of which I think is propogated by the increasing number of bogus insanity defences devised to permit the guilty to receive lighter or no sentences.

Finlly I still say this day should bge reserved for the what should be the real focus and that is the victims and their families.

[Gob]

The facts of the current tragity are being released and once again the spectre of mental health is in the forefront. I have read in some of the posts here that concern themselves with the lack of identification and intervention of those in need of help before the melt down.

I have to agree with you there Miles, maybe in a different thread someone or someones can enlighten us on the current state of play for mandatory monitoring, treatment and hospitalisation of "at risk" individuals in the USA?

[Sean]

Don't worry Jim, I have no intention of getting into another argument like that one...

I simply wanted to register my absolute disgust with those who put their constitutional rights over the lives of children. You can call it chest-thumping, I call it sentience.

Anyone who can hear about this tragedy and not say, "Okay, tighter gun control may not solve all our problems but let's try it because we have to change something!", is not somebody who ought to be around guns (or children) IMO.

[Miles]

Don't worry Jim, I have no intention of getting into another argument like that one...

I simply wanted to register my absolute disgust with those who put their constitutional rights over the lives of children. You can call it chest-thumping, I call it sentience.

Anyone who can hear about this tragedy and not say, "Okay, tighter gun control may not solve all our problems but let's try it because we have to change something!", is not somebody who ought to be around guns (or children) IMO.

Sean, the last part of your post I absolutely agree with. Sticking a finger in a leaking dyke is just for show. Personally I hope something will be done on both fronts, gun control and mental health. The unforunate thing about it is that neither are likely to happen with any satisfactory speed. Another unfortunate occurance dealing with this weeks horror is the human reaction to what has happened. Emotions and nerves become raw and the frustration of not being able to have stopped it causes many people to either over or under react. Sometimes the reality of a situation is so ugly, disturbing and unbelievable that lashing out is common.

[Sean]

Miles, sticking a finger in the dyke is not just for show, it's making an effort! Granted, things won't change overnight... Maybe they won't change at all...

Is that a good enough reason not to try?

[liberty]

Anyone can set up meth lab in their basement. The same isn't true of a gun factory.

This thing is bad enough to give a parent a pain in the center of the chest and a depressed feeling, but that does not change the fact you are wrong. One does not need a factory to make guns. You couldn’t do it but you are not everyone, I doubt that you could repair a screen door if your life depended on it. Anyone with a basic mechanical aptitude, the necessary tools and sufficient motivation could do it. It is a skill like making meth or anything else, the first ones would be crude, but quality would improve with experience. Hell people have even built homemade air planes they are more complicated that a gun.

Fine, you build yourself an AK-47 and post a picture of it here when you're done.

I don’t have the motivation to do that; among other things I don’t have the time. It ranks low on my priority list. If I had the time I would prefer to build me a reciprocating lumbering saw, but I probally won’t get around to that either. But only to scooter is making a gun is equivalent to brain surgery.

I don’t know if this is real but I have seen a homemade deer rifle:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/

[Scooter]

I don’t have the motivation to do that

Translation: the village idiot was talking out of his ass, as usual.

I don’t know if this is real

Considering that it says right in the plans:

The weapon shown in the following document has not been built and is a prototype design only.

what do you think?

Moron.

[liberty]

I don’t have the motivation to do that

Translation: the village idiot was talking out of his ass, as usual.

I don’t know if this is real

Considering that it says right in the plans:

The weapon shown in the following document has not been built and is a prototype design only.

what do you think?

Moron.

I never said that I was interested doing it. And you will notice that I did not respond with an insult; I get no pleasure out insulting others. I can’t understand why someone would, Lack of self-control perhaps.

[Scooter]

Acknowledging that you lack the wit to keep up is the first step. Congratulations.

[liberty]

[:

The weapon shown in the following document has not been built and is a prototype design only.

what do you think?

Moron.

It is a British website.

Even in this country one could be suited for miss-used information.

[Scooter]

Try using the few brain cells God gave you, however unexercised they are most of the time. If the sorts of guns that criminals are in the market for could be constructed out of a few lengths of pipe, do you think they would waste thousands of dollars a piece to buy the real thing?

[Lord Jim]

And pay for the ads with taxes on the sale of guns.

Yeah, well personally I don't think that making it prohibitively expensive for poor and working class people to be able to afford a firearm for self defense, is the way to go....

(Anymore than it makes sense to put huge taxes on gasoline to prevent poor and working class people from being able to drive)....

[liberty]

Acknowledging that you lack the wit to keep up is the first step. Congratulations.

Congratulation Scooter you have succeeded in depressing me; the world is full of people like you that get pleasure out of hurting other people. You have not hurt me, but the thought is depressing. I am out of here.

[Guinevere]

The facts of the current tragity are being released and once again the spectre of mental health is in the forefront. I have read in some of the posts here that concern themselves with the lack of identification and intervention of those in need of help before the melt down.

I have to agree with you there Miles, maybe in a different thread someone or someones can enlighten us on the current state of play for mandatory monitoring, treatment and hospitalisation of "at risk" individuals in the USA?

If you mean the standard for involuntary commitment, it's generally a state law issue so the standard varies. In Massachusetts a physician must certify that failure to hospitalize is likely to cause a serious harm, the person being committed has a right to a hearing and counsel, and the commitment cannot last longer than 3 days. And good luck finding a judge to hear the matter, and then the bed for the patient . . .

[Miles]

Miles, sticking a finger in the dyke is not just for show, it's making an effort! Granted, things won't change overnight... Maybe they won't change at all...

Is that a good enough reason not to try?

Sean I am all for trying, nothing is ever accomplished without effort. I also understand just how certain subjects here in the U.S. can take much longer than others to get action on. Once the shooters mental health history was put in play the pro gun people breathed a sigh of relief. That is their pass the buck skategoat and they will play it every chance they get.

For those of you both foreign and domestic who advocate a total ban on hand guns just how woulld you suggest that could be implicated? For better or worse it would cause nothing less than a civil war.

Just a question not meant to cause an argument,"how long did it take for the English to rest the power from the kings and queens?" Good or bad changes take time no matter the urgency.

[Sean]

I'm not calling for a total ban. I'd like to see the ''right to bear arms' become the 'privilege of bearing arms'.

There's your starting point.

[Gob]

What do our American chums think of this?

Current Australian firearm laws

State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.

Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defence.

Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category.


Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control. The categories are:

Category A: Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles, and paintball markers. A "Genuine Reason" must be provided for a Category A firearm.

Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.

Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.

Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.

Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.

Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibers are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

Category R/E: Restricted weapons: machine guns, rocket launchers, assault rifles, flame-throwers, anti-tank guns, Howitzers, artillery, etc. can be owned by collectors in some states provided that these weapons have been rendered permanently inoperable. They are subject to the same storage and licensing requirements as fully functioning firearms.

Certain Antique firearms can in some states be legally held without licences. In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.

All single-shot muzzleloading firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901 are considered antique firearms. Four states require licences for antique percussion revolvers and cartridge repeating firearms, but in Queensland and Victoria a person may possess such a firearm without a licence, so long as the firearm is registered (percussion revolvers require a license in Victoria).

Australia has very tight restrictions on items which are far less controlled in comparable societies such as the UK. Air pistols, elsewhere unrestricted, are as difficult to get as centrefire and rimfire handguns, and low-powered airguns are as difficult as cartridge arms to license. Airsoft guns are banned in all states and non-firing replicas banned in most. Suppressors (or 'silencers') which are legal in the UK and New Zealand, are extremely restricted in Australia to a few government bodies.