Uncle Ben's Rice...

[wesw]

your micro - agressions surely hurt my wittle feelings.

shut up you meanies. you have no right to say hurtful things!

[wesw]

this isn t the 18th century!

you can t just spout any opinion you want to!

it is hurtful!

shut up! you are being rude! shut up!!!!!

[wesw]

bullshit for everyone!!!!!

[wesw]

...and George will is a snotty little prig. ...and o reily is a self important ass

[wesw]

jim, as you you well know, I have praised sue in the past for at least being honest about what the 2nd amendment says, and attempting to oppose it in the legal way, by changing the constitution.

and as you also know, I am amenable to a full tilt Constitutional convention. (which seemed to frighten you)

it is tiresome to again hear the claims that I am too ignorant to have a valid opinion about the constitution.

I don t think that that my posting record here is that of an ignorant person, do you?

free speech is under assault on campuses across the nation. shall we repeal the first amendment too?

if we get rid of those first two pesky amendments we take down the Christians , the press , and the gun nuts...

[wesw]

socialism leads to communism which leads to starving Ukrainians eating their poor dead mothers...

elitism leads to trump......

[Lord Jim]

I am amenable to a full tilt Constitutional convention. (which seemed to frighten you)

Yes, and rightly so...

Because such a confab would be populated by contemporary know-nothing idiots...

Such a prospect should not merely frighten; it should terrify...

[Sue U]

I don t think that that my posting record here is that of an ignorant person, do you?

socialism leads to communism which leads to starving Ukrainians eating their poor dead mothers...

[rubato]

Yes, you wrote that EVERY crusade (9 or so) BEGAN with a massacre of Jews in a European city.

See following post.

As to the guns, you continue to use the false (and you know it to be false) example of heavily armed and organized German troops when the issue was joined over the situation before the Nazis took power. Why continue to create false scenarios - unless you have no real argument to make regarding pre 1936 Germany?

The Nazis took power in 1933. Please describe for us how the Jewish minority before that date could has used a few privately-owned guns to stop this from happening?


The argument is just dumb. It relies on attributing magic powers to guns.



yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

The Nazis took power in 1933. Please describe for us how the Jewish minority before that date could has used a few privately-owned guns to stop this from happening? The argument is just dumb. It relies on attributing magic powers to guns.
yrs,
rubato

Please read what was actually written instead of whatever fantasy you are "responding" to:

He's ridiculed for suggesting that had guns been common in post-WW1 Germany, then the Jews (and gypsies and homos and Christians and....) may not have been so easy to round up. That's the same observation that Jews made after the war - that the communists made in the inter-war period - that commentators have often repeated down the years since. Whether it is a practical notion is not relevant - what's relevant is that it's neither novel nor outrageous

There is not one suggestion that "a few privately owned guns (could have stopped) this from happening".

Why do you lie so often and so easily?

[rubato]

I will amend the statement to say that the Crusades began each with multiple massacres of Jews in European cities:


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... sades.html



The First Crusade

Frequently their assistance to the attacked Jews was passive at the most. It was in the region where the crusaders assembled that violence broke out, in the weeks between Passover and Shavuot. The rioting continued until Tammuz (June–July). On the eighth of Iyyar (May 3, 1096), the crusaders surrounded the synagogue of Speyer ; unable to break into it, they attacked any Jews they could find outside the synagogue, killing eleven of them. One of the victims, a woman, preferring death to conversion, the only choice left open by the crusaders, inaugurated the tradition of freely accepted martyrdom. Kiddush ha-Shem , martyrdom for the glory of God, thus became the exemplary answer of Jews threatened in their life and faith by the crusaders. On the 23rd of Iyyar (May 18, 1096) Worms suffered a similar fate. The crusaders first massacred the Jews who had remained in their houses, then, eight days later, those who had sought an illusory refuge in the bishop's castle. The victims numbered about 800; only a few accepted conversion and survived, the great majority choosing to be killed or suicide rather than apostasy. Hearing of the massacre, the Jews of Mainz asked for the bishop's protection, paying him 400 pieces of silver to this end. When the crusaders, led by Emicho, arrived outside the town on the third of Sivan (May 27, 1096), the burghers hastened to open the gates. The Jews took up arms under the leadership of Kalonymus b. Meshullam. Weakened through fasting, for they had hoped to avert the disaster through exemplary piety, the Jews had to retreat to the bishop's castle; however the latter could do nothing for them, as he himself had to flee before the combined assault of crusaders and burghers. After a brief struggle, a wholesale massacre ensued. More than 1,000 Jews met their deaths, either at the enemy's hands or their own. Those who managed to escape were overtaken; almost no one survived. A comparable disaster occurred in Cologne, where the community was attacked on the sixth of Sivan (May 30, 1096). The bishop dispersed the town's Jews in order to hide them in nearby localities: at Neuss, Wevelinghofen, Eller, Xanten, Mehr, Kerpen, Geldern, and Ellen. The crusaders located them and a bloodbath followed. At Trier the bishop could not protect his Jews, as he himself had to go into hiding, and he consequently advised them to become Christians. The great majority refused, preferring suicide. At Regensburg , all the Jews were dragged to the Danube where they were flung into the water and forced to accept baptism. At Metz , Prague , and throughout Bohemia , one massacre followed another. These came to an end when Emicho's crusaders were decisively halted and crushed by the Hungarians, who, incensed by their excesses when they poured through the country, had risen against them. Seeing in this the hand of God, the Jews promptly set about reconstructing their ruined communities. There had been more than 5,000 victims.

...

Meanwhile, the crusaders had reached Jerusalem (June 7, 1099), and the siege had begun. The city was captured on July 15, with Godfrey entering it through the Jewish quarter, where inhabitants defended themselves alongside their Muslim neighbors, (an historical example that even an armed and prepared jewish minority had no chance of survival) finally seeking refuge in the synagogues, which were set on fire by the attackers. A terrible massacre ensued; the survivors were sold as slaves, some being later redeemed by Jewish communities in Italy. The Jewish community of Jerusalem came to an end and was not reconstituted for many years, but the Jewish centers in Galilee went unscathed. However, the great community of Ramleh dispersed, as did that of Jaffa , so that overall the Jewish community in the Holy Land was greatly diminished.

The Second Crusade

As early as the summer of 1146, a Cistercian monk, Radulph, while preaching the Crusade, violently attacked the Jewish communities of the Rhineland, exhorting the crusaders to avenge themselves on "those who had crucified Jesus" before setting out to fight the Muslims. The spiritual leader of the Crusade, Bernard of Clairvaux , pointed out the theological error in his arguments, strictly forbidding any excess against the Jews, who were to be neither killed nor expelled. Although the anti-Jewish riots had begun before his intervention, he succeeded in preventing them from spreading so that, in the final count, they were far less extensive than those in the First Crusade. The persecution began in Elul (August–September). A few isolated Jews were put to death. At Cologne, the Jews bought the protection of the bishop and managed to find refuge in the fortress of Walkenburg. The bishop even went as far as having the leader of a mob blinded for killing a number of Jews. There were few victims at Worms and at Mainz, but more than 20 at Wuerzburg . Scores of Jews sought refuge in the castles and the mountains. In Bohemia, about 150 lost their lives, and victims were equally numerous in Halle and Carinthia . As in the First Crusade, the community of France suffered less than the Rhineland communities. Jacob b. Meir Tam was set upon a group of crusaders, who stabbed him in five places in memory of the wounds suffered by Jesus, but he succeeded in escaping with the help of a knight with whom he was acquainted.

The Third Crusade and After

In January the first abuses struck the port of Lynn , where the bulk of the Jewish community was massacred. The same occurred in Norwich and Stamford . At Lincoln , the Jews were saved through the intervention of royal agents. The worst outrage took place in York , where a number of local nobles, in heavy debt to the Jews, seized the opportunity to rid themselves of their burden. When attacked, the Jews took refuge in the Castle Keep, which the guard had opened for them; those who remained in the town were slaughtered. On their refusal to allow access to the keep, the Jews were besieged. On March 16, on the eve of Passover, the rabbi, Yom Tov b. Isaac of Joigny , realizing that all hope was lost, asked his brethren to choose suicide rather than submit to baptism. First setting fire to their possessions, one after the other killed himself. More than 150 died in this way, and the few survivors were murdered by the mob, who also destroyed the register of debts to the Jews. In Bury St. Edmunds 57 Jews were put to death. As the king was out of the country, where he neither could nor cared to intervene too vigorously, the perpetrators of the massacres also left England for the Crusade. There is little doubt that the Jews in England lost faith in the prospect of their continued survival in the West. The emigration in 1211 of 300 rabbis from Western Europe to the Holy Land may be connected with this general disillusionment. As the enthusiasm of the masses waned, the Jews in Western Europe were little troubled during the 13th-century Crusades. However, it appears that there was a massacre in central France around 1236 during the preparations for a Crusade; in fact, Pope Gregory IX accused the crusaders of having slaughtered over 2,500 Jews.

Yet, at the very moment when the great wave of Crusades was ebbing, the Jewish community in France suffered most acutely from a popular Crusade, that of the Pastoureaux (1320). Forty thousand of these "shepherds," aged on an average around 16 and without any clearly designated leader, marched through France from north to south. Although Pope John XXII excommunicated all who set forth on this unauthorized march, this did not hinder the new crusaders from hurling themselves at the Jews in the manner of their predecessors. Their savagery was especially marked south of the River Loire, where they destroyed some 120 communities. Hoping to be protected there by the authorities, numbers of isolated Jews and small communities took refuge in the larger towns. Five hundred who had sought safety in the town of Verdun sur-Garonne found death there. At Toulouse there were 115 victims. In the Comtat Venaissin , a direct papal dependency, there were many cases of forced conversion; the subsequent attempt to return to Judaism provoked the prompt intervention of the Inquisition.

The Significance of the Crusades

The Christians saw the Jews as the implacable enemies of their faith and in this climate the blood libel became widespread. From the 12th century comes the first expression of the idea of a Jewish plot against the Christian world: it was alleged that the Jews had to sacrifice one Christian each year, and held an annual council to decide the site of the sacrifice and the name of the victim. At Blois in 1171, all members of the Jewish community were burned at the stake following such an accusation, and from the 13th century similar charges were raised in Germany.

Whereas in European Jewish history before this date episodes of violence and persecution are occasionally known, there now began a period of intermittently recurring massacre and persecution which colored European Jewish experience for centuries to come. The heightened religiosity of the age resulted in the sharpening of the system of anti-Jewish discrimination and of Jewish humiliation, culminating in the legislation of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215. The chronicles of Solomon b. Samson , Eliezer b. Nathan of Mainz , Ephraim b. Jacob of Bonn, Eleazar b. Judah of Worms , and many other whose names are not known, described the events of the Crusades, the scenes of the massacres, and the martyrs. They are also to be regarded as basic sources from which statistical accounts of the Crusades must start. Through capturing these events they magnified their significance, but thereby furnished an ideal of conduct which was constantly recalled to mind whenever severe persecutions befell the Jews.

The fact is proven that Hitler did not invent antisemitism or begin to use at as an excuse to exterminate Jews and steal their property, the Christian Church did it 1,000 years before. The Church continued to persecute and murder Jews during the inquisition.


yrs,
rubato

[BoSoxGal]

I don t think that that my posting record here is that of an ignorant person, do you?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Have you ever visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C., Meade?

I guess I'm not seeing at what point you believe (or Dr. Carson believes, either) that Jews in Germany or elsewhere in Europe could have risen up with personal firearms to prevent the ultimate horrors of the holocaust.

Yes, I have.

Please see the post above which points out to rubato that neither I (nor Carson as far as I can tell) stated that Jews in Germany or elsewhere in Europe could have risen up with personal firearms to prevent the ultimate horrors of the holocaust. I think you must have read what rubato falsely* ascribes to me instead of what I actually did write.

*falsely and knowing it to be false. He's too intelligent not to realize what he's doing

[BoSoxGal]

I'll apologize to you, Meade, if I misunderstood or misread your posts on the subject.

I saw the clip of what Carson said on the subject, and I'm pretty clear that he believes more guns in the hands of Jews would have prevented the Holocaust.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I'll have to see that video - it wasn't my understanding but I was wrong once in my life (when I thought I was mistaken about something).

[BoSoxGal]

Video here: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... y-had-guns

Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson has waded deeper into a row over gun control by claiming that Jewish people in Nazi Germany might have been able to prevent the Holocaust if they had been armed.

Carson was quizzed on CNN over comments in his new book, A More Perfect Union: What We the People Can Do to Reclaim Our Constitutional Liberties, which cites Nazi Germany to argue that the right to bear arms should not be curtailed.

CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked him: “Just clarify, if there had been no gun control laws in Europe at that time, would six million Jews have been slaughtered?”

Carson replied: “I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed … I’m telling you that there is a reason that these dictatorial people take the guns first.”

[rubato]

[quote="rubato]The Nazis took power in 1933. Please describe for us how the Jewish minority before that date could has used a few privately-owned guns to stop this from happening? The argument is just dumb. It relies on attributing magic powers to guns.
yrs,
rubato

Please read what was actually written instead of whatever fantasy you are "responding" to:

He's ridiculed for suggesting that had guns been common in post-WW1 Germany, then the Jews (and gypsies and homos and Christians and....) may not have been so easy to round up. That's the same observation that Jews made after the war - that the communists made in the inter-war period - that commentators have often repeated down the years since. Whether it is a practical notion is not relevant - what's relevant is that it's neither novel nor outrageous

There is not one suggestion that "a few privately owned guns (could have stopped) this from happening".

Why do you lie so often and so easily?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


First you say it was "pre 1936" (the Nazis came to power in 1933) now you refer to much later than 1936; the period when they were rounded up and killed.

They would have been easier to round up and kill. As I showed before. It would have removed the need for trains to transport them and build camps to kill them in slowly. And by defending themselves they would have provided the excuse for their own slaughter. The Nazis would have slightly changed tactics, that is all.

Why are you unable to argue honestly? You merely lie and weasel-word. You say "before 1936" a nonsensical date, then "when they were rounded up" And there were only 215,000 Jews left in Germany (the rest had left) at the outbreak of war. If you are referring to the much larger numbers of Jews in the Occupied countries then your argument is much worse because they were invested with thousands of well-armed and battle hardened Wehrmacht troops who would crush any armed resistence (like they did the armies of those countries.


It is still a stupid argument and you have done nothing to make it better. Carson is an uninformed idiot.

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

The fact is proven that Hitler did not invent antisemitism [well, there's a classic strawman...hands up all of those who thought Adolph Hitler invented anti-semitism] blah blah blah

yrs,
rubato

Again, I ask you, what is the excuse for your anti-semitism?

Just in case you missed it rube, here it is again:

The racism towards blacks is contiguous with their racism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Muslim). And it is tied to their religion.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8956&p=113300&hilit=their+religion#p113300

Waiting, waiting, waiting....

[rubato]

The fact is proven that Hitler did not invent antisemitism[well, there's a classic strawman...] blah blah blah

yrs,
rubato

Again, I ask you, what is the excuse for your anti-semitism?

Just in case you missed it rube, here it is again:

The racism towards blacks is contiguous with their racism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Muslim). And it is tied to their religion.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8956&p=113300&hilit=their+religion#p113300

Waiting, waiting, waiting....

The former thread refers to the actions of the State of Israel which is distinguishable from Judaism, to those smarter than you. The persecution of African immigrants to Israel has been in the news lately.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

Jim, the fact that you (italics) don t seem to believe in a govt. of , by , and for the people is extremely disheartening.

meade I kind of understand, being british and all...