Explosions and Gunfire Reported At Three Locations In Paris

[Lord Jim]

it translates to: they have guns (or arms), but too bad, we have champagne.

Fortunately, the French authorities are not responding by popping champagne corks at the terrorists...

[MajGenl.Meade]

But if he did read the Q'ran he might, just might, find this (amongst so many other jewels):

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran ... olence.htm

So much for disbelieving cartoonists... and concert goers... and diners... and travelers on planes... and on those going to market in Beirut...

[Big RR]

Meade--somehow I would not trust a site which says it is dedicated to exposing the "politically incorrect truth of Islam" (on the first page of their site). One could pick and choose biblical passages to prove the same thing about Christianity or Judaism if that was the aim of any inquiry.

[rubato]

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" was taken very much to heart for many centuries resulting in the murders of thousands of people. (An estmate is 60,000.)


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NKJV

Punishment of Apostates

13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade--somehow I would not trust a site which says it is dedicated to exposing the "politically incorrect truth of Islam" (on the first page of their site). One could pick and choose biblical passages to prove the same thing about Christianity or Judaism if that was the aim of any inquiry.

Go ahead. I don't think there's one that is an eternal command to kill unbelievers as part of the ongoing faith. All are situational to the time - horrible as some certainly are. (rubato points to examples relating to Israel). Certainly I can't think of any connected to Christ. Noted that in the parable of the bridegroom the words "compel them to come in" were taken by Augustine among others as justification for some very nasty work in North Africa.

As to witches, there may be some doubt and it certainly was used within a belief system that very much considered "witches" to be a reality. Most figures are bogus. 502 is probably as likely as 60,000 - propaganda numbers if ever there were

[Big RR]

Meade--I'm not going to bother because I do not think either religion is that way (nor do I think Islam as a religion is), but people can pervert language of texts to their own ends. In your citation, one need only look at how the group interprets the historical context to understand the point they are trying to make.

As for your discussion of the witch quote from Exodus (as I recall), do you really think it is that much better if only 502 persons were put to death based on it? I don't see it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Big RR, so you claim equivalence of biblical Christianity and the Q'ran and then cannot provide any evidence. rubato at least tried, though of course missing the point of historical context vs. ongoing instruction for "how to do our religion".

People all over the world have been either placating, consulting or killing "witches" (or their local equivalent word) without benefit of the Old Testament since long before there was an OT up to the present day. I think it's something to do with that "then we got scared" thing. I don't think it's nice at all. Fortunately, Christianity (even in your misunderstanding of it) does not endorse killing witches as part of the Sunday morning family time

Interesting that you diagnose the clear words of the Q'ran (which if you check their links you will see are given in three different translations by Islamic scholars) are "perverted" and not "actual".

How do you know that? Have you been passing around the memo that paraphrases bits of the Q'ran about "Do not burn a building" and so on, muttering approval of such pacific language?

I'm glad you were able to understand the point by looking at the historical context. Apparently the fighters of Da'esh agree with you by the way (and with the Suras given at the website). The passages do not apply only to defensive warfare but to aggressive expansion of Islam by attacks on infidels.

[rubato]

Meade--somehow I would not trust a site which says it is dedicated to exposing the "politically incorrect truth of Islam" (on the first page of their site). One could pick and choose biblical passages to prove the same thing about Christianity or Judaism if that was the aim of any inquiry.

Go ahead. I don't think there's one that is an eternal command to kill unbelievers as part of the ongoing faith. All are situational to the time - horrible as some certainly are. (rubato points to examples relating to Israel). Certainly I can't think of any connected to Christ. Noted that in the parable of the bridegroom the words "compel them to come in" were taken by Augustine among others as justification for some very nasty work in North Africa.

As to witches, there may be some doubt and it certainly was used within a belief system that very much considered "witches" to be a reality. Most figures are bogus. 502 is probably as likely as 60,000 - propaganda numbers if ever there were

60,000 is a low estimate.

[Big RR]

Big RR, so you claim equivalence of biblical Christianity and the Q'ran and then cannot provide any evidence. rubato at least tried, though of course missing the point of historical context vs. ongoing instruction for "how to do our religion".

Please Meade, I said nothing of the sort--I only pointed out that the words of the bible can be quoted out of context just as those of the koran can be. I'm not going to waste my time trying to find those quotes, but I have no doubt they exist. If you believe nothing in the bible can be in any way construed to promote violence against the "others", then fine. Rubato pointed out the witch quote and you attempt to dismiss it by saying witch killings were based on fear, but the quote is clearly there.

But if you insist on language that could be seen as saying we should kill our enemies, see Psalm 137:

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Dashing the little ones of your enemies against stones makes one of god's chosen happy? Now you will undoubtedly argue that this is not intended to be taken literally, and I will agree with you; but I give the Koran the same latitude--something the site you quoted does not do because they are committed to expose the dirty truth (read slander) islam.


If you are content to take the word of a group which is decidedly anti-islam for the historical context of the quote posted, then so be it. I just don't buy it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

You are making a mistake.

Neither Christianity nor the Bible advocate the past, current and future growth of the religion based upon killing non-believers

That churches and leaders have from time to time (and often at times) committed awful acts and argued support from the Bible is not doubted. But they argue the support - the Bible does not command those acts as a requirement of the faith. Man, I even gave you the "compel them to come in" and what was made of that!

The Q'ran does command these acts. Da'esh understand the words. Islam is committed to domination

Apologists do not understand. Purposely or otherwise. You say these words are wrong - but you say that without basis. Now, I read Moslem scholars and clerics who argue that these words are offset by other words and so on. But what they are trying to do is avoid the clear message of a religion born (and borne) by the sword of conquest.

I dismiss the witch thing because it was a command to Israel; no more applicable to Christianity than stoning a daughter or whatever. The Q'ran is to be taken as a command to all of the faithful, not just to the people of the Prophet's time.

[Lord Jim]

60,000 is a low estimate.

[Big RR]

Meade--the quote I posted is from the bible and it says what it says; you can't run from it, although you can place it in historical context. The OT is full of such militaristic language, but this is particularly problematic because it states that happy are those that dash children's heads (people who lack even the capacity to be nonbelievers) against rocks in the enemy country Babylon. Somehow, I would be if the Koran had exactly this same quote your would not be so sanguine. You can believe what you want, but at least concede that the piece you posted is not an unbiased analysis of Islam or the Koran verses quoted. I'm pretty certain an anti-Christian or anti-Jewish group could provide the sort of analysis of the verses I quoted to say that these religions are dangers and scourges on the face of the earth.

And if pointing that out is being an apologist, then I am a proud apologist.

[Econoline]

Besides witch hunts, the words of the Bible have been used to justify a war of annihilation against the Canaanites, the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery, the Holocaust, and the persecution of homosexuals.

• Islam doesn't promote violence or peace. Islam is just a religion and like every religion in the world it depends on what you bring to it. If you're a violent person, your Islam, your Judaism, your Christianity, your Hinduism is gonna be violent. There are marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful and that depends on their politics, their social world, the ways that they see their communities.
  
  -- Reza Aslan

[Guinevere]

it translates to: they have guns (or arms), but too bad, we have champagne.

Fortunately, the French authorities are not responding by popping champagne corks at the terrorists...

Did I say they were or should be? I believe you missed the point entirely.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well, Big RR, it doesn't take much to say "that's just wrong" and then produce nothing whatsoever to prove that it is wrong. Guess I'll just have to take your word for it that the Q'ran doesn't say what it says and it doesn't mean what it says.

[Econoline]

Of course the Q'ran says what it says...but (like the Bible) its meaning, emphasis, and interpretation are supplied by historical context and fallible human beings. Christians are fallible, and so are Muslims.

[Lord Jim]

it translates to: they have guns (or arms), but too bad, we have champagne.

Fortunately, the French authorities are not responding by popping champagne corks at the terrorists...

Did I say they were or should be? I believe you missed the point entirely.

My reaction to that "cartoon" is that it was juvenile and extremely tasteless, especially given the timing. I wonder how amusing the family members of the 129 people who were murdered found it to be.

[rubato]

"....

I dismiss the witch thing because it was a command to Israel; no more applicable to Christianity than stoning a daughter or whatever. The Q'ran is to be taken as a command to all of the faithful, not just to the people of the Prophet's time.

500 years of practice and a minimum of 60,000 deaths contradict your sophistic implausibility. The Christian church interpreted it as applying to them and acted very bloodily on the command.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

You too miss the point. A church (more than one) decided to condemn "witches". (And it seems mostly in Germanic countries or am I misunderstanding that?). But it is not a condition of the Christian faith and never purported to be. Killing infidels is a condition of Islam, plainly stated and plainly understood

Sophistry comes in when trying to explain that away - which so far is being done with monotonous regularity by folks who don't produce anything in the way of facts or evidence.

There is no Christian command "in order to be a good Christian you need to kill witches". That is not true with Islam which requires the explaining away of the very clear suras that deal with forcing unbelievers to obey, pay taxes or die; it being the duty of the Moslem to ensure that happens.