Independence day

Gob · Post by **Gob** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:18 am

Cheeky fucker.

ex-khobar Andy · Post by **ex-khobar Andy** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:22 am

Nicola Spurgeon, the leader of the Scottish Nationalists, has already said that she is looking for another referendum. As a Scot myself (born in Glasgow) but spent only two or three years of my life there, I was totally against independence as I thought it was lose-lose. But one of the arguments which no doubt swayed the vote was that Scotland without England would have to leave the EU.

I can see this scenario. After the dust has settled a little and some of the ramifications become clearer, there will be an opinion poll. The question will be: knowing what you know now, how would you vote? And I would guess that if the new polls showed a very solid 'remain' vote, they would find a way for a do-over. Wishful thinking, perhaps. But if someone offered me 10 to 1 I'd put 50 quid on it.

rubato · Post by **rubato** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:31 pm

Nicholas Barrett, a political journalist who lives and works in Florence, explained why in a comment first on Facebook and then on the website of the Financial Times:

A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded, and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another.

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors.

Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said, ‘The British people are sick of experts,’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has led to anything other than bigotry?

Barrett expanded on these ideas in a recent essay. But it was his single quote that went viral on Twitter, perhaps because, more than a chart of falling stock prices, it shows the impact of leaving on those who believed that Britain was better off as a part of Europe, and the way in which the country’s young voters, who overwhelmingly supported remaining, feel they will pay for the decisions of their elders.

Barrett expanded on these ideas in a recent essay. But it was his single quote that went viral on Twitter, perhaps because, more than a chart of falling stock prices, it shows the impact of leaving on those who believed that Britain was better off as a part of Europe, and the way in which the country’s young voters, who overwhelmingly supported remaining, feel they will pay for the decisions of their elders.

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12023544/b ... ung-voters

yrs,
rubato

Big RR · Post by **Big RR** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:53 pm

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries.

I doubt that is true; I know many American expats who work in EU countries. If Americans can obtain visas and work there, then I cannot see why UK citizens could not do the same. Granted it is not as easy as for citizens of EU member countries, but they still can work and live in them.

Now he did use the word "right", but then no one has a right to work (or a job) in any western country I am aware of.

rubato · Post by **rubato** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:27 pm

They have lost the automatic right to do so and now will have to be vetted like people getting green cards to work in the US. Your profession is no longer portable except at their need and pleasure, and you can no longer relocate at your wish. A friend's sister is a geologist on sabbatical in Lyon France and is required to leave France and return every few months because she does not have the right the UK has just thrown away.

yrs,
rubato

Bicycle Bill · Post by **Bicycle Bill** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:30 pm

UK Independence Party Leader Admits His Bold Brexit Claim Was a "Mistake"

As Britain awoke on Friday to the news that it had voted in favor of withdrawing from the European Union, voters were introduced to their new reality with a stunning admission from Nigel Farage, the pro-Brexit advocate who leads the U.K. Independence Party. Farage said that the Vote Leave campaign's signature pledge—that leaving the European Union would allow for £350 million to be spent on the U.K.'s National Health Service—was a "mistake."

Farage's mea culpa was made during an appearance on Good Morning Britain, where he was asked if he could continue supporting that promise after the campaign to extract the United Kingdom from the European Union had succeeded.

"No I can't, and I would have never made that claim," Farage said. "It was one of the mistakes I think the 'leave' campaign made"

When pressed by Good Morning Britain's Susanna Reid, who said that 17 million people had voted to leave the EU partly on that bold promise, Farage repeatedly stalled, as he attempted to disavow the campaign pledge.

"Do you think there are other things that people will wake up this morning and find out aren't going to happen?" Reid asked.

-"BB"-

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:33 pm

Chicken Liberal

rubato · Post by **rubato** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:53 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/world ... abc-region

Younger people are getting the worst of it:

“Truly gutted that our grandparents have effectively decided that they hate foreigners more than they love us and our futures,” one young Briton, Dan Boden, wrote on Twitter.

“Waking up to the #EURefResults and realizing the older generation have just ruined our future,” one young Briton, Toby Pickard, wrote on Twitter.

Another, Sarah Hartley, wrote that “our economy is in tatters” because “our grandparents cared more about their comfort than our future.”

In Edinburgh, a university city with a strongly pro-European bent, Robert Jack, a 21-year-old student at the University of Glasgow, was reeling from the decision. He worried that his plans to study in Romania on the European Union’s student-exchange program, Erasmus, were in jeopardy.

The vote “is very damaging,” Mr. Jack said, adding that he now welcomed a second referendum on whether Scotland should leave the United Kingdom, because “it’s better being inside the European Union.”

But many young voters wondered what would happen to European Union funding for research and sciences. British universities currently receive about 16 percent of their research money and staff members from the European Union.

James Calderbank, 21, a student at Falmouth University in Cornwall, England, wrote in an email: “Since the early hours of this morning my Facebook newsfeed has been filled with my friends’ disappointment that we are leaving the E.U.”

He added: “Our campus was part-funded by the E.U., so things are really not looking good for my university and its source of funds.” Cornwall, as a fairly rural and less-developed part of southwest England, was also a beneficiary of economic aid from Brussels, he noted.

Some high-school students expressed dismay as well. “There is a very clear rift between how us young people feel and how the oldest age groups feel,” Elliot Shirnia, 18, a student at the Marling School in Gloucestershire, England, wrote in an email, adding that as the son of a refugee from Iran he felt the Leave campaign was divisive.

Anxiety about the economy and immigration drove the Leave campaign’s victory. But many young people said they thought the decision would only set back their prospects.

“I’m already part of a generation stuck in rented property unable to buy my own house,” Hannah Shaw, 25, who works at a National Health Service hospital and lives with her parents, wrote in an email. “The older generation seem so happy with the result, almost smug like it’s some sort of victory completely unaware of the chaos they’ve caused for my generation. I’m dreading what will happen to employment, workers’ rights, the environment and our economy.”

She added that she had friends from countries like Slovakia, Poland, Spain and Romania.

“It’s hard to see it affect them and think of the amazing people I’ll never meet after we leave the E.U.,” she said. “The U.K. suddenly feels very small.”

Feels small and acting small.

yrs,
rubato

Big RR · Post by **Big RR** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:12 pm

rubato wrote:They have lost the automatic right to do so and now will have to be vetted like people getting green cards to work in the US. Your profession is no longer portable except at their need and pleasure, and you can no longer relocate at your wish. A friend's sister is a geologist on sabbatical in Lyon France and is required to leave France and return every few months because she does not have the right the UK has just thrown away.

yrs,
rubato

Indeed, that is the case, but is the case with all independent, self-governing countries. Face it, it's not like the electorate of any member country has all that much to say about the governance of the EU--the representatives are not elected, yet can make laws that affect the people in each country. is it a fair trade off? My guess is that it depends where you stand with regard to employability in another member country vs your own, and how much some of the EU other regulations have affected you (and perhaps how much you value democratic rule versus legislation by appointed bureaucrats). I personally don't think leaving the EU was all that good a choice, but I can see both sides.

Lord Jim · Post by **Lord Jim** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:18 pm

Gee whiz, the folks with the least amount of perspective and life experience are the ones who are the most upset...

And they're also the ones who cared so much that (surprise surprise) they turned out to vote in the lowest percentages...

"The youth" are great at shooting off their mouths and engaging in melodramatics, (a heaping helping of both in that article) but showing up to vote...

Not so much...

The self-centered crybabies quoted in that article care more about their own personal convenience then they do about their country's national sovereignty and ability to shape its own destiny...

They should be ashamed of themselves; hopefully they'll change as they grow up.

rubato · Post by **rubato** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:33 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... ed-old-an/

The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support

According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit.

This was a pattern that was reflected in the results.
Leave vote (%)No education (%)Those with no education tended to vote Brexit

Brexit vote compared to proportion of those aged 16-64 with no education; eachpoint representing a local area30405060700510152025
Source: NOMIS

Only three of 35 areas where more than half of residents had a degree voted to leave - South Bucks, West Devon, and Malvern Hills in the West Midlands.

Class was a key dividing line in the EU referendum

Levels of education and class overlap strongly in the UK, and so the Brexit vote also matched up with areas with higher levels of people from the DE social class - meaning people in semi-skilled or unskilled labour, those in casual labour and pensioners.

This includes Blaenau Gwent in Wales, which has the highest working class population in Britain - 62 percent of voters here went for Leave.

The Brexit camp are like Trump (GOP) voters. Uneducated, racist, and poor.

RayThom · Post by **RayThom** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:52 pm

Another parable sent to me by my cousin.
............................................................
IF YOU VOTED OUT...

If you voted out because of "unelected politicians" then well done because we're about to get an unelected prime minister.

If you voted out because of immigration then well done, because you just lost the right of free movement too. Just wait 'til you have to get a visa to go to Glasgow or Belfast.

If you voted out because people were "stealing your jobs" then well done, because you're about to see Germany and France "steal" Nissan and a bunch of other companies who only manufacture here as a gateway to the EU market.

If you voted out because you think we'll get a great trade deal with the EEA "like Norway did", think again. Take a look around your Sainsbury's Local and try and find any fruit and veg that's grown in the UK. We need them more than they need us, and like the EEA, we'll have to accept EU policies like free movement as part of a trade deal anyway - except now we won't be able to have any say in them.

If you voted out because of vague scaremongering headlines like "Migrant Crisis" then please, feel free to remind me when it was that Syria joined the EU.

If you voted out because Farage promised £350m for the NHS, then I'm sure you'll be happy to watch him on This Morning revealing that that was a lie.

If you voted out and you're heading into retirement, then great job! Because now the working people of this nation will break their backs to afford your pension without the influx of young, economically active and skilled EU migrants.

If you voted out because you think we'll be better off, the £ has just fallen by 8% against the dollar.

And if you voted out because you love this country, prepare to see it crumble, with threats of a unified Ireland and an independent Scotland just hours after the result was confirmed.

Well done, Britain.

Burning Petard · Post by **Burning Petard** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:41 pm

"The value of the pound sterling dropped" Maybe that is problem and maybe it is not. I am too ignorant to have a useful opinion about the topic of this thread. I am an American with all the narrow point of view and lack of knowledge about the rest of the world that frequently entails. But that does not stop me from posting. (ignorance rarely stops any posting)

The value of a national currency is usually described in terms for something else. Each of the terms can have very different worth depending on many different things. A while back some economists were quoting the value of various nations currencies in terms of what it took in local money to buy a Big Mac locally--because Golden Arches made a major effort to provide the exact same sandwich all around the world. The value of an English pound or a Canadian Looney in my pocket here in Bear Delaware is not very much. Just not many around here that want them. Once in a while I will find a Canadian dime or Canadian penny in my change purse because they are similar to US coins in appearance, but jam in coin vending machines.

However that is just not the same as making an item in a local factory in Delaware with lots of customers around the world willing to buy. I buy my raw materials with dollars and pay my workers with dollars. My customers accumulate wealth to pay for it in their local currency. When the value of the dollar goes down in term of their currency, my product becomes cheaper for them and I can sell more.

In other words, if you are exporting, you want the want the value of the customers local currency to go up, so your currency is cheaper for your customer. But if you are importing, you are happier with the reverse. So Brits are gonna pay more for those foodstuffs from Europe, but Nissan will be able to make MORE money selling those cars made in England to Europeans. Which is also why trade barriers and import duties are of so much interest. They tend to change more slowly than exchange rates.

No such thing as a free lunch.

(((((snailgate)))))

MajGenl.Meade · Post by **MajGenl.Meade** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:45 pm

When something starts with ignorant twattery, one wonders what value has the remainder?

Britain does not "elect" Prime Ministers. The party chooses who the Prime Minister will be and then puts him or her in a "safe" party seat to make sure he or she gets elected. When Prime Ministers resign (and several have), the party always chooses which MP will be the prime Minister - first among equals ha ha ha.

That thing about fruit and veg and how we don't grow our own. Yes, I remember the apple orchards of Kent being ploughed under because the European Union required it. I also remember when Britain was not a member of the EEU and OH LORD HOW DID WE SURVIVE IT? It was simply horrible.

Requiring a visa to go to Glasgow or Belfast will be a relief since it will work the other way round.

Plus I don't live there....

Gob · Post by **Gob** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:49 pm

Bicycle Bill wrote:
UK Independence Party Leader Admits His Bold Brexit Claim Was a "Mistake"

As Britain awoke on Friday to the news that it had voted in favor of withdrawing from the European Union, voters were introduced to their new reality with a stunning admission from Nigel Farage, the pro-Brexit advocate who leads the U.K. Independence Party. Farage said that the Vote Leave campaign's signature pledge—that leaving the European Union would allow for £350 million to be spent on the U.K.'s National Health Service—was a "mistake."

Farage's mea culpa was made during an appearance on Good Morning Britain, where he was asked if he could continue supporting that promise after the campaign to extract the United Kingdom from the European Union had succeeded.

"No I can't, and I would have never made that claim," Farage said. "It was one of the mistakes I think the 'leave' campaign made"

When pressed by Good Morning Britain's Susanna Reid, who said that 17 million people had voted to leave the EU partly on that bold promise, Farage repeatedly stalled, as he attempted to disavow the campaign pledge.

"Do you think there are other things that people will wake up this morning and find out aren't going to happen?" Reid asked.

I've pointed out previously, that Farage did not make that claim.

Gob · Post by **Gob** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:59 pm

rubato wrote:
The Brexit camp are like Trump (GOP) voters. Uneducated, racist, and poor.

Rubato is nothing if not an insufferable snob, is he not?

Scooter · Post by **Scooter** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:59 pm

Lord Jim · Post by **Lord Jim** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:05 am

Gob wrote:
rubato wrote:
The Brexit camp are like Trump (GOP) voters. Uneducated, racist, and poor.
Rubato is nothing if not an insufferable snob, is he not?

And the supreme irony has always been of course, that there is no one imaginable with less cause to feel superior to anyone else...

Bicycle Bill · Post by **Bicycle Bill** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:09 am

Gob wrote:
Bicycle Bill wrote:
UK Independence Party Leader Admits His Bold Brexit Claim Was a "Mistake"
I've pointed out previously, that Farage did not make that claim.

Gob, I was merely quoting Scooter's original post and then appending my little image to it. As I've said before, I have no dog in the Brexit fight. Like you with regard to the American election foo-fo-rah, I am merely standing on the sidelines with a bag of popcorn, waiting to see what will happen.

-"BB"-

wesw · Post by **wesw** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:29 am

damn.
I wish Meade was speaking to me.

I would really like to ask him about th orchards of Kent being plowed under....

sure. I could google it, but I sometimes find that listening to the experiences and wisdom of an actual human being to be more informative than a dry, sometimes slanted, historical essay...

oh wait...

Plan B Forum

Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Independence Day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day

Re: Independence day