Graveyard of Empires

[Big RR]

Not to mention the "deal" he made with the Taliban (most likely to cover any allegation that he "lost"; he didn't give a damn about anyone but himself). So much for the "expert" negotiator he claimed to be.

[Bicycle Bill]

Afghanistan's lesson is not to listen to fools like Colin Powell but realistic men dick Cheney. Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war and make a desert and call it peace.

Next, you'll be parroting that other famous line that came out of Vietnam — "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

And despite your sig-line lament about not being placed in an 'air force combat position', I note that none of the preferred positions on your list — security police (night watchman); air control (the guy on the radio), or dog handler (or as the Lakota named him, "Plays With Puppies") — were actually likely to have placed you in a position where you were being shot at on a regular basis.

Either way, you're speaking like a true chicken-hawk.

-"BB"-

[liberty]

Afghanistan's lesson is not to listen to fools like Colin Powell but realistic men dick Cheney. Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war and make a desert and call it peace.

Next, you'll be parroting that other famous line that came out of Vietnam — "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."


Either way, you're speaking like a true chicken-hawk.

-"BB"-

I believe that expression predates Vietnam; I might be wrong, but I think it goes back to the suppression of the Cathars in southern France in the Middle Ages. The Catholic commander was asked how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics in a particular town. And the commander said kill them all God knows his own.

[Jarlaxle]

Correct.

[Big RR]

One would hope our views of warfare and the killing of persons (including civilians) has progressed since the middle ages, but for some it, apparently, has not. Maybe we could also poison the wells, salt the land so nothing will grow, and enslave any survivors as well?

I knew people like that in the army, usually people who have never been in combat, who would say something like "Keep shooting until the moaning stops". Real combat troops realize two can play at that game and avoid it.

[BoSoxGal]

One would hope our views of warfare and the killing of persons (including civilians) has progressed since the middle ages, but for some it, apparently, has not. Maybe we could also poison the wells, salt the land so nothing will grow, and enslave any survivors as well?

I knew people like that in the army, usually people who have never been in combat, who would say something like "Keep shooting until the moaning stops". Real combat troops realize two can play at that game and avoid it.

Really? There are some scenes from Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 that challenge your assertion. Also the case of US Navy Seal Eddie Gallagher. Also the prison staff at Abu Ghraib. Lots of other undocumented instances too, no doubt.

I think the human blood lust that accompanies war hasn’t changed much at all over the history of humankind - and now guys in air conditioned rooms in Nevada can shoot hellfire missiles at children in Iraq or Afghanistan like it’s all a video game, without even suffering the consequences of seeing the slaughter in person.

[BoSoxGal]

Here’s the scene I’m thinking of:

[Big RR]

Well, I am sure there are some exceptions, but most combat troops I have known who have actually been in combat do not have that blood lust; it's a job and they do what they have to, but they don't relish it. Oh they may bluster and talk big in front of the recruits, but most experienced soldiers realize that we don't kill or mistreat prisoners, because that just encourages the other side to do exactly the same thing (and any one of them can be a prisoner. It's the wannabes, the the recruits and reservists wanting to appear to be big men, or th always behind the lines people like the MPs in Abu Ghraib, or the guys teetering on the edge who commit the atrocities, not the seasoned combat troops. At least that has been my experience, and I would imagine others who have been in the service would say the same thing.

[MajGenl.Meade]

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Watch on YouTube

[BoSoxGal]

This video is age-restricted and only available on YouTube. Learn more
Watch on YouTube

Yes, through the magic of technology you can click that line that says ‘watch on YouTube’ and watch it there.

[Big RR]

It certainly seems that way. Or even better, if you can find the entire film (and I imagine it's available online), watch it; it's well worth the time. My clear favorite of Michael Moore's films.

[BoSoxGal]

It certainly seems that way. Or even better, if you can find the entire film (and I imagine it's available online), watch it; it's well worth the time. My clear favorite of Michael Moore's films.

The most lucrative documentary of all time, and winner of the Palme d’Or at Cannes in 2004. Definitely a must see, even all these years later.

https://watchdocumentaries.com/fahrenheit-911/

[MajGenl.Meade]

This video is age-restricted and only available on YouTube. Learn more
Watch on YouTube

Yes, through the magic of technology you can click that line that says ‘watch on YouTube’ and watch it there.

It was the age-restricted... am I mature enough for it?

[Jarlaxle]

One would hope our views of warfare and the killing of persons (including civilians) has progressed since the middle ages, but for some it, apparently, has not. Maybe we could also poison the wells, salt the land so nothing will grow, and enslave any survivors as well?

I knew people like that in the army, usually people who have never been in combat, who would say something like "Keep shooting until the moaning stops". Real combat troops realize two can play at that game and avoid it.

That is, indeed, quite outdated. It is MUCH easier to simply blanket the area with a couple billion cubic feet of nerve gas. No troops needed.

[liberty]

The question remains; who was right, Dick Cheney or Colin Powell? If we had followed Dick Cheney's advice, we've been out of Afghanistan and years ago. Powell is an idealist, but Dick Cheney was a realist. Sometimes you can't do something. But you can strike back at an enemy when they strike us, and we can destroy their military capability, but we can't changed them. We can win every battle in Afghanistan, but we can't change their culture; only they can do that. I ask you whose advice was more realistic? Whose advice should we have followed Dick Cheney's or Colin Powell's?

[Big RR]

Neither was right; we shouldn't have gone in at all. this was a no win situation. Of course, if we had only wanted to track down bin Laden (it isn't like he controlled their military capabilities), we could have done so without a grand invasion of the country, but W (and Cheney) had dreams of grandeur.

[Econoline]

One would hope our views of warfare and the killing of persons (including civilians) has progressed since the middle ages, but for some it, apparently, has not. Maybe we could also poison the wells, salt the land so nothing will grow, and enslave any survivors as well?

I knew people like that in the army, usually people who have never been in combat, who would say something like "Keep shooting until the moaning stops". Real combat troops realize two can play at that game and avoid it.

That is, indeed, quite outdated. It is MUCH easier to simply blanket the area with a couple billion cubic feet of nerve gas. No troops needed.

Oh yeah, right... I'm sure the rest of the world would just stand around and do nothing if the US undertook to commit genocide on a scale beyond anything Hitler or Stalin ever did. I'm sure the annihilation of a poor, backward nation of >30,000,000 Muslims would not turn any of the world's remaining >1,700,000,000 into radical anti-US terrorists. Simple, huh?

[Jarlaxle]

One would hope our views of warfare and the killing of persons (including civilians) has progressed since the middle ages, but for some it, apparently, has not. Maybe we could also poison the wells, salt the land so nothing will grow, and enslave any survivors as well?

I knew people like that in the army, usually people who have never been in combat, who would say something like "Keep shooting until the moaning stops". Real combat troops realize two can play at that game and avoid it.

That is, indeed, quite outdated. It is MUCH easier to simply blanket the area with a couple billion cubic feet of nerve gas. No troops needed.

Oh yeah, right... I'm sure the rest of the world would just stand around and do nothing if the US undertook to commit genocide on a scale beyond anything Hitler or Stalin ever did. I'm sure the annihilation of a poor, backward nation of >30,000,000 Muslims would not turn any of the world's remaining >1,700,000,000 into radical anti-US terrorists. Simple, huh?

They'd get over it. They want a holy war, maybe it's time to give them one.

[BoSoxGal]

That’s just such a shocking and disgusting sentiment. I can only hope it’s entirely facetious.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be judged by the morals of a significant percent of my countrymen at present, and because I have that conviction, I refuse to judge tens of millions of innocent civilians just trying to live their lives by the actions of a fraction of them. And I cannot leave aside the truth, as so many apparently do, that when I was a child my country’s president was declaring many of those same people, or their fathers, courageous freedom fighters and arming them in their quest to take on the Soviet invaders of their country. Invaders who looked very much the same as the American invaders 20+ years later.

Honestly Jarl you are a likable person in many ways but you really need to widen the scope of your information sources and do a dig into history before you condemn an entire nation of people based on the actions of relatively few.

[Jarlaxle]

100,000% dead serious. Yes, I would rather wipe out every man, woman, and child in Afghanistan than lose one single American.

Almost every problem comes from being soft.