Shutdown

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rubato
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Re: Shutdown

Post by rubato »

oldr_n_wsr wrote:... Also one can grow by creating new departments, hiring more people etc. which may or may not lead to more spending. ...

Really. Show us how the government can create new departments and hire more people without spending more. Amaze us.

Big RR
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Big RR »

rubato--I would think by allowing the expansion only in the self-sufficient departments which are funded by their fees (like the Patent and Trademark Office) and allowing them to adjust their fees to pay for the additional personnel and overhead.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Shutdown

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

rubato wrote:
oldr_n_wsr wrote:... Also one can grow by creating new departments, hiring more people etc. which may or may not lead to more spending. ...

Really. Show us how the government can create new departments and hire more people without spending more. Amaze us.
Simply by cutting elsewhere. Much like a home budget that needs to adapt to changing circumstances. Spend less by cutting out premium cable(or shopping around for a better phone package) allows one to spend (or save for) a car. Not really that amazing.

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Long Run
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Long Run »

Lord Jim wrote:
No, no, no...dgs, Jim and Long Run once explained how unemployment in the public sector doesn't hurt the economy because government employees aren't really employed anyway...
I can hardly wait for you to come up with the quote where I said anything remotely resembling that....
Ditto.

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Econoline
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Econoline »

Lord Jim wrote:
No, no, no...dgs, Jim and Long Run once explained how unemployment in the public sector doesn't hurt the economy because government employees aren't really employed anyway...
I can hardly wait for you to come up with the quote where I said anything remotely resembling that....
Jim, it's called hyperbole ("a figure of speech that uses an exaggerated or extravagant statement to create a strong emotional response. As a figure of speech it is not intended to be taken literally. Hyperbole is frequently used for humour.")--and I used that particular figure of speech because I was (and am) about to go into Batshit Hulk "Me break things!" mode over the Worst Congress in the History of the Multiverse.

Here is the quote from you that I was thinking of:
Lord Jim wrote:Sure, money spent by public sector employees are governed by the same laws of economics as money spent by private sector employees. But you're skipping past a central point:

Because all of the cost for a public sector employee, (salary, benefits, healthcare retirement, etc.) is initially born by the public treasury, each public employee represents a net cost (by a significant multiple) to public coffers, regardless of any multiplier effect or taxes that employee might pay...

(This is obviously true; if it weren't we could just make every unemployed person a government employee and magically the budget would balance...)

Clearly this net cost is not the case with a private sector employee, so from a purely economic standpoint, private sector job creation is vastly preferable to public sector job creation. Every private sector job created represents a net plus for the treasury; every public sector job created represents a net minus.
ETA: Here's a similar post from Long Run from that same thread.
Last edited by Econoline on Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Long Run
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Long Run »

I am surprised it came to this again. Hard to see this as anything other than a bad strategy for the Rs and really bad government.

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Econoline
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Econoline »

People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

rubato
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Re: Shutdown

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:rubato--I would think by allowing the expansion only in the self-sufficient departments which are funded by their fees (like the Patent and Trademark Office) and allowing them to adjust their fees to pay for the additional personnel and overhead.
The patent and trademark office generates a large surplus which currently goes into the general fund. If they hired more people it would cut the revenue they now turn over. It would cost money.

yrs,
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rubato
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Re: Shutdown

Post by rubato »

oldr_n_wsr wrote:
rubato wrote:
oldr_n_wsr wrote:... Also one can grow by creating new departments, hiring more people etc. which may or may not lead to more spending. ...

Really. Show us how the government can create new departments and hire more people without spending more. Amaze us.
Simply by cutting elsewhere. Much like a home budget that needs to adapt to changing circumstances. Spend less by cutting out premium cable(or shopping around for a better phone package) allows one to spend (or save for) a car. Not really that amazing.
So you flunked arithmetic? If you add jobs here and then cut jobs there you are not "hiring more people". "Hiring more people" means you have MORE people hired afterwards than before.

Wow.

I keep wondering who votes for these idiots, thanks for clearing that up.


yrs,
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Big RR
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Big RR »

rubato--unless it changed back, I don't think the surplus goes to the general fund anymore. But in any event, federal departments funded by fees could conceivably be exanded without increasing government spending.

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Econoline
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Econoline »

People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Gob
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Gob »

Forgot to add; your system is fucking nuts. :D
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Guinevere
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Guinevere »

Hmmm, well Gob, in 1975 the Aussie government shut down over failure to be funded because of disputes in Parliament. Of course, being a Commonwealth country, still tied to the Queen's apron strings, the Governor General fired everyone, passed a budget, and a new Parliament was eventually elected. That kind of resolution couldn't happen in a completely free country like ours, where the people have a say in what happens (and have to live with the good and the bad). Mommy can't come and rescue us, and in the long term, I'll take ours over yours any day of the week.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

rubato
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Re: Shutdown

Post by rubato »

It's still an arithmetic problem; more government hiring = higher government costs.

And:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201310 ... down.shtml
"... Since 1991, about $1 billion in user fees have been withheld from the USPTO as a result of the practice of diverting user fees – collected from patent and trademark applicants – away from the Office to unrelated government programs. The America Invents Act, signed into law on September 16, 2011, created a “reserve account” in the U.S. Treasury to hold the fees collected by the USPTO that exceed its annual appropriation. The law instructs the USPTO to look to appropriations acts for instructions on how to access the money. The FY 2012 appropriations bill did include instructions for the USPTO on how to access money in the reserve fund, however such language must be reinserted each future appropriations bill. Therefore, the reserve account alone will not stop diversion and a more permanent fix is needed.

To that end, Rep. Mike Honda has submitted a bill to protect the reserve fees from being diverted to cover shortfalls elsewhere or fund new spending. But, much like the budget itself, it's currently languishing in the House, not having moved forward since June 28th.
yrs,
rubato

rubato
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Re: Shutdown

Post by rubato »

And they shut down the census dept website already!

Bastards.

yrs,
rubato

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Shutdown

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

So you flunked arithmetic? If you add jobs here and then cut jobs there you are not "hiring more people". "Hiring more people" means you have MORE people hired afterwards than before.
My net outlay may still be zero. Get rid of one highly paid person, hire x-ammount lesser paid employees. Or some part timers. I may even save money and expand. by the way, more than a few companies have gotten rid of older long time employees who have large salaries and hired less experienced but qualified people. 2-1 or 3-1 was not unheard of. Expansion

Or not a buy a piece of equipment and hire one or more people (expand) for the same or less the equipment cost.

Move location or renegotiate your lease allowing you to hire (expand) with $0 dollar outlay. Again, nore than a few companies have left high tax areas to settle in lower tax areas using the tax savings to hire more people (expand). Or negotiate with teh gov entities and get some tax breaks again using that money to hire more people (expand) with a $0 outlay.

Guess you never lived on a budget or figure out how to do more with less.

Do you work in the government accounting office?

rubato
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Re: Shutdown

Post by rubato »

And we're down to complete mindless whinging.


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Lord Jim
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Lord Jim »

So you flunked arithmetic?
LMAO :lol:

rube mocking somebody elses math skills...

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Andrew D
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Andrew D »

This
Econoline wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:Every private sector job created represents a net plus for the treasury; every public sector job created represents a net minus.
is utterly absurd.

IRS tax collectors are hired precisely because they bring in more money than they cost. Parking enforcement officers (a/k/a "meter maids") are hired precisely because they bring in more money than they cost. The notion that every public-sector job is a net minus for the treasury is preposterous.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Lord Jim »

It seems to me that there were two logical ways to have avoided this situation, after the House sent over the CR with the Obamacare year delay and the provision to remove the medical device tax...

The first one would have been if Reid had moved a little off his "absolutely nothing but a clean CR" position, and gone ahead and had the Senate vote on a CR that removed the Obamacare individual mandate delay, but kept the lifting of the tax on medical devices. (This would have made him look like he was "going the extra mile from a PR standpoint; while really not giving up very much. There's widespread bipartisan agreement in both Houses that this tax was an ill conceived idea for a lot of reasons, it's very likely to be eliminated anyway.)

It would have been good from a PR standpoint for Obama too. He could have stood up and said, "I've said all along that I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to improve the legislation, so long as they did not involve attempting to repeal or gut the ACA. I can accept this measure as meeting that criteria, and while I'm strongly opposed to tying any kinds of conditions to the CR, in the interest of sparing the country the pain of a government shutdown, I will go the extra mile and sign a CR containing this provision."

That would have put the House GOP in the position of either accepting that, or having to go on the record for voting down the repeal of the medical device tax, and making the optics of it crystal clear that they and they alone were the ones who wouldn't budge.

That not having happened, the second logical way to have avoided this,would have been for the House, after the Senate rejected their version of the CR, to have sent over another one that removed the year delay on Obamacare, but retained the medical device tax elimination...

That would have put Reid in a very difficult spot because he would have been under a lot of pressure from members in his own caucus to accept a CR under those circumstances despite his "no compromises on the CR" position, and I think ultimately he would have had to allow that to come to a vote and it would have passed overwhelmingly.

But of course neither of these logical, intelligent things happened...

Instead what happened was something so puzzlingly stupid that as much as I have wracked my brains about it I can not conceive of what the possible rational strategy could have been for it, even taken from the most narrow ideological perspective I can postulate...

What happened of course was that the House GOP left the Obamacare delay in the bill, but switched out the medical device tax repeal, and replaced it with a provision removing exemptions from Obamacare from members of Congress and their staffs. A proposal which (unlike the medical device tax repeal, which would achieve some actual, tangible, good) has an economic impact either way so infinitesimal as to be virtually unmeasurable. It was the kind of empty symbolism that the vast majority of Americans probably don't give a rat's patootie about...

I am at a complete loss to understand why they did this. if the whole thing wasn't so serious it would be downright comical...

It's sort of like a chef who serves a customer a shit sandwich with a side order of fries, and when it get's returned to the kitchen says to himself, "Ah I know what the problem is. He obviously doesn't like fries. I'll send it back out to him with a side order of onion rings, and everything will be fine..."

It seems to me that rather then waste the time and effort of sending back a bill that had absolutely zero chance of being accepted, they could have made themselves look less ridiculous after they voted down the second clean CR the Senate sent back by not holding another vote. They could have said:

"Look, we sent over a CR that would have defunded Obamacare, and the Senate refused to accept it. So we sent over a second CR this time only asking that individuals be granted the same one year delay that the President has already given to businesses, and they wouldn't accept that. In addition they have refused to make any kind of counter proposal whatsoever. As far as we're concerned we've shown good faith that we want to bring an end to this impasse, and the Senate hasn't, so the ball remains in the Senate's court."

Now, I'm sure that most people here would take issue with the position I just outlined as one the GOP House members could have taken, (I'm not all that persuaded by it myself) and say well, that takes things out of context, it's not a fair construction of the larger picture, etc.

But nevertheless it's a much better position from a PR standpoint then what they actually did, and it would certainly have made them look less ridiculous....

However it's quite evident at this point that "try to look less ridiculous" does not occupy a prominent place on many "To Do" lists in Washington these days... :roll:
Last edited by Lord Jim on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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