Gay Marriage Map

[TPFKA@W]

Again, it is not an indictment of southerners, nor any suggestion that all persons in the south or in the "north" think the same way; more a recognition that the regions appear to be very different politically for the majority if voters in each.

Reading many of the comments from various posters over time suggests something quite different. Reverse bigotry is really just as unattractive as bigotry. And to think the reverse bigots see themselves as superior is laughable. It just shows that the reverse bigots are just as ignorant as the bigots and equally intolerant of different cultures.

[Sue U]

Nothing reverse about it (and I do believe it goes both ways, both here and IRL).

I freely admit to my prejudices concerning the South, particularly the rural South and especially Texas (if that actually counts as "South" rather than "fer chrissakes it's Texas.") There is much of Southern culture that I simply don't understand (or doesn't resonate with me), and some that I am deeply suspicious about. I know many Southerners have similar feelings about the North, and particularly the urban Northeast.

[Lord Jim]

Reverse bigotry is really just as unattractive as bigotry. And to think the reverse bigots see themselves as superior is laughable. It just shows that the reverse bigots are just as ignorant as the bigots and equally intolerant of different cultures.

We have a:

[Big RR]

Well @W, if commenting on the political landscape and the apparent political positions of persons is bigotry (reverse or otherwise), then I guess I am guilty. But that's an awful broad definition, and even any comment such as "the souther states voted for W" or the "northeastern states voted for Obama" would be bigotry as well. The majority of voters (or at least the majority of those voters who actually cast ballots) have spoken and I do think one can point out the political differences among the states/regions without being a bigot, but it all depends on how the term is defined.

I see significant political differences among some regions of the US, and I point out that maybe we might be better off as two different nations who can seek our versions of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness separately. I don't see that as bigoted anymore than I see moving to a locality/state/even nation where the majority sees things the way that I do bigoted. IMHO, we can deal with dissent, but at some point the differences become big enough, separation is a good choice.

edited to add: That being said, I will agree there are some on both sides who do tend to stereotype the other side, and such stereotypes often resonate with a portion of their political bases. and I will agree that that type of bigotry is as wrong as any other.

[TPFKA@W]

I am not talking about politics.

There is much of Southern culture that I simply don't understand (or doesn't resonate with me), and some that I am deeply suspicious about. I know many Southerners have similar feelings about the North, and particularly the urban Northeast.

That pretty much sums up the roots of bigotry. A lack of understanding and suspicion of a culture that is different from ones own.

If I said something about how awful it would be if there were 2 Israels or 2 New York Cities or to be even more specific, 2 Harlems, it really wouldn't be terribly different from the implication of saying how unacceptable it would be to have 2 Mississippis.

(I am picking on Sue sorry Sue) But bigotry does not become more acceptable simply because, in this case, it is SueU tested and approved. Good grammar, appropriately placed punctuation along with a law degree from a good school still does not make it any less unprepossessing.

[wesw]

TPK, I just want to give you a big hug.

[Sue U]

You're right, @w, and I apologize for the bigotry reflected by my comments. I will try to do better.

Please also consider that when I say I don't understand Southern culture, it's not (solely) out of ignorance. For example, I seriously do not get the obsession with high school or even college (especially SEC) football -- or football in general, for that matter. Or NASCAR. I do not care for the slow and indirect ways many Southerners have in managing both business and interpersonal relations. I do not care for hanging onto "tradition" solely for tradition's sake. And don't even get me started on the whole Confederate battle flag thing -- that's some bullshit right there that makes my alarm bells start ringing.

I have always thought a very interesting insider's look at Southern culture was presented in Sherman's March. I recommend it.

Anyway, it was not my intention to offend you (or anyone else) with my terrible attempt at making a joke at Mississippi's expense. I am sorry for that.

[BoSoxGal]

This country doesn't need two Mississippis - I'm not afraid to say that. Missouri + Mississippi is bad enough.

And please, go ahead and make fun of the backwoods neanderthals living in the rural areas of Maine, one of my beloved 'home' states. The present Governor there is evidence of the low IQs.

I certainly won't stand in the way of anybody trashing the bleeding heart liberal politics in my beloved home state of Taxachusetts er, Massachusetts.

And if we have to quit making fun of Californians, I'm surrendering my account.

And YES, you can make fun of Montucky, too! Many native Montanans are happy to do so themselves.

[TPFKA@W]

You're right, @w, and I apologize for the bigotry reflected by my comments. I will try to do better.

Please also consider that when I say I don't understand Southern culture, it's not (solely) out of ignorance. For example, I seriously do not get the obsession with high school or even college (especially SEC) football -- or football in general, for that matter. Or NASCAR. I do not care for the slow and indirect ways many Southerners have in managing both business and interpersonal relations. I do not care for hanging onto "tradition" solely for tradition's sake. And don't even get me started on the whole Confederate battle flag thing -- that's some bullshit right there that makes my alarm bells start ringing.

I have always thought a very interesting insider's look at Southern culture was presented in Sherman's March. I recommend it.

Anyway, it was not my intention to offend you (or anyone else) with my terrible attempt at making a joke at Mississippi's expense. I am sorry for that.

It happens to the best of us.

I will tell you that I have spent many years trying hard to overcome deep rooted brainwashing and bigotry. (Which is likely why I see it when others may not.) There are many aspects that continue to need improvement, many things that I need to educate myself about. One aspect is to learn that there are one hell of a lot of people with whom I disagree on politics, religion and things as mundane as favorite colors. I hate lazy people and road hogs. However, when the day is over I have to share the planet with those people, even if I do look down my nose at them, and their right to exist and be stupid is as valid as my own right to exist and think that my way is the right way. I have to respect their space and their right to exist even if I would rather they did not exist or at least agreed with me. Keeping this at the top of my thoughts keeps me from choking the life out of people who really would benefit from it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

[Guinevere]

I'm pretty sure we all agree that bigotry, or reverse bigotry, does nothing to advance what we know is important -- equality of all people, no matter their color, creed, religion, national origin, education, home state, profession, etc. (which means you *all* have to be kind to blonde, liberal, feminist, lawyers, even when they make you want to scream (in pain or pleasure).

So, the harder question is how do we advance this forward when we see examples of racism, hatred, and bigotry, which we perceive to be more frequent in certain people than in others. Respect is a start, but where does education come into the picture? And where does education become snobbery? There are no easy answers, for sure.

I admit to my own love/hate relationship with the South (and Tejas). I was born and raised there (if you consider Maryland the South, and its a least South of the Mason & Dixon line), most of my family is still there, and I love my homeland. There is lots of good, and lots of good people. I've had fabulous times in other parts of the South as well. But I don't think I could ever live there any more. I'm much more comfortable with the good folk of New England.

PS - if you piece out the red/blue divide, I believe it becomes as much an urban/rural divide as a north/south one. Which is, I think, a more difficult nut to crack, and which has some regional aspects to it as well.

[wesw]

making fun is one thing. once you get to the point where you are talking about inbred morons spewed from the syphilitic uterus of their mothers, its more of a hate thing

[Guinevere]

And is there *anyone* here who has said those things?

[Big RR]

if you piece out the red/blue divide, I believe it becomes as much an urban/rural divide as a north/south one

''

Guin--I haven't looked at the statistics recently, but I had seen some that suggested that rural new Englanders were politically different from rural southerners; many of the new Englanders shared a more libertarian bent on politics than those in the south who were more likely to embrace god and country/family values. Has this changed?

I think the same is true for urban divides--urban dwellers in NYC or San Francisco are much more likely to embrace gun control or oppose capital punishment, e.g., than urban dwellers in Miami or Austin.

As for what counts as the "south", I'm not sure how demographers split it up, but I do think if you take the former CSA you get most of what many of us would call "the south"; the Mason Dixon line is not a good indicator--southern NJ is below it if you extend it to the Atlantic ocean.

[wesw]

yes, see the thread "my new favorite American"

[wesw]

beg pardon , he said, expelled, not spewed....

[wesw]

...lol, and I got crap for asking someone, "do you even read the news".

[Guinevere]

Yes, BigRR, I saw a map like that recently -- below is one I found on Wiki -- although I think the one I saw was in an article in The Atlantic last week.



As you can see, there isn't a 100 correlation - 100% of Massachusetts and Vermont went Blue, 100% of Utah and Oklahoma went Red --- but blue in Red states is definitely concentrated in more urban areas (see New York and Georgia), and the red in Blue states is in the more rural areas (see Nevada, Washington, Oregon and California).

[Guinevere]

Here's an older article on the issue from The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ca/265686/

Partisan lines that once fell along regional borders can increasingly be found at the county level. What does that mean for the future of the United States?

Starting before the Civil War era, America's political dividing lines were drawn along state and regional borders. Cities and the then-extensive rural areas shared a worldview North and South of the Mason-Dixon line. While there was always tension within states, they were bound by a common politics. The city of Charleston, for example, was as rabidly anti-North as some inland plantation areas. Economic engines, ways of life, and moral philosophies changed at the 36th parallel, where the North began.

Today, that divide has vanished. The new political divide is a stark division between cities and what remains of the countryside. Not just some cities and some rural areas, either -- virtually every major city (100,000-plus population) in the United States of America has a different outlook from the less populous areas that are closest to it. The difference is no longer about where people live, it's about how people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal.

And the key graphic:




More from the article about specific cities and their impacts:

The only major cities that voted Republican in the 2012 presidential election were Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, and Salt Lake City. With its dominant Mormon population, Mitt Romney was a lock in the Utah capital; Phoenix nearly voted for Obama. After that, the largest urban centers to tilt Republican included Wichita, Lincoln, Neb., and Boise.

The gap is so stark that some of America's bluest cities are located in its reddest states. Every one of Texas' major cities -- Austin, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio -- voted Democratic in 2012, the second consecutive presidential election in which they've done so. Other red-state cities that tipped blue include Atlanta, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Birmingham, Tucson, Little Rock, and Charleston, S.C. -- ironically, the site of the first battle of the Civil War. In states like Nevada, the only blue districts are often also the only cities, like Reno and Las Vegas.

Because winning a state's electoral votes requires only a simple majority, a single city can change the entire game. Blue cities in swing states that ended up going for Obama last Tuesday include Las Vegas, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Denver, the cities of Florida, and the cities of Ohio.

[Econoline]

Now, I’m liberal, but to a degree
I want ev’rybody to be free
But if you think that I’ll let Barry Goldwater
Move in next door an' marry my daughter
You must think I’m crazy!
I wouldn’t let 'im do it for all the farms in Cuba!

-- Bob Dylan, "I Shall Be Free #10" (1964)