Unabashedly Good News...

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rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

When prices change people change their behavior. Economics is a science of collective human behavior.


A predictable bad outcome:

The Hummer is back. Thank falling oil prices.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... il-prices/
The military-style Hummer H1, more tank than truck, disappeared from the new car lots long ago, killed off by General Motors for the sin of guzzling a gallon of gas every 10 to 12 miles. And as the cost of gas hung above $3.50 for four years, even used Hummers languished on used lots, too.

That is, until the price of crude oil — and gasoline — started to nosedive. “We’ve sold a few just in the last few weeks,” said Blake Sharkey, an assistant sales manager at Stadium Auto in Arlington, Texas.

Over the last month, auto analysts say, consumers have shown a fresh interest in the kind of SUVs — Hummers, Lincoln Navigators, Ford Explorers — that typified America’s bigger-is-better mindset of twenty years ago. The new mindset among some car buyers is one of the most unexpected consequences of a domestic oil boom that has helped cause global crude prices to plummet in recent months, with the cost of a gallon of gas now below $3. ...
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The beginning of being able to think about policy questions is to separate short-term and long term effects. When prices go down, in the short term everyone likes that. But the medium and long term effects are often opposite. When unemployment went up the Nixon fed printed money; short term, the economy improved but medium and long term it caused spiking high inflation which was only tamed by Paul Volcker; who had to employ policies which were in the short term painful but in the long term necessary and beneficial. When gas prices go down people buy less efficient cars, they drive more, they stop carpooling, and we become more vulnerable to oil price rises in the future and we accelerate climate change.

I've written threads before about how it is often a problem when things are too cheap or too abundant. Food is too cheap and that is the most important driver of the obesity epidemic, for one example. When water was too cheap we wasted it in California (before the '76 drought) and in wasting it caused secondary environmental problems (Kesterson Reservoir, dewatering a major salmon river). Fuel was too cheap in the 1960s which led to the public buying stupidly inefficient cars which in turn made us even more vulnerable to harm from the oil shocks of the 1970s


yrs,
rubato

Jarlaxle
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Jarlaxle »

So when do you sell your house, dispose of your motor vehicles, move into a 200 square foot studio apartment, and walk or bicycle everywhere, rube? Showers should be limited to 90 seconds of hot water, heat limited to 60 degrees. Air conditioning is, of course, unnecessary.

Hypocrite.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

There isn't even a logical connection between the two.

I'm glad LJ has friends like you.



yrs,
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Jarlaxle
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Jarlaxle »

You are wasting natural resources, hypocrite!

$2.899 here yesterday...though diesel is still $3.379 or more.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Lord Jim »

Rube never sees the logical connection between his own behavior and that which he arrogantly and hypocritically wishes to impose on others.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

If they bring back the hummer, it's affect on green house gasses will be minimal and those that buy it would buy pretty much regardless of the price of gas. Lower gas prices and the industry that brought it to us is a win for the average persons. More jobs as the oil industry hires more people, less spent on getting to those jobs (and general driving means more in the pocket. More in the pocket means more money to spend especialy aroud Christmas time. More stuff bought, the more jobs...etc.
Isn't that what we have been trying to get to happen these past how many years?
The uptick in large-ass suvs being bought is of minimal concern when compared to the other good things that may happen with the economy.
And given the time it takes to relaunch a truck like the hummer back into the market, I have to think it's relaunch was planned long before, and without the knowledge, of lower gas prices.
As for me, I have a few extra dollars in my pocket after my weekly expenses. And it doesn't make it into savings (although it might if this keeps up) and I end up spending it on whatever. And if the lower middle and poor also have those extra dollars, they too will spend it.
I think it's a good thing overall.

rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

Giving away free cigarettes to the soldiers in WWI had such a positive effect on national health. Yet another example of LJs idea of "unabashedly good".


Maybe we should cut the price of sodas? And have some more "unabashedly good" to enjoy?

We can cut the price of water in half and have some real "unabashedly good" effects on water availabillity.


yrs,
rubato
Last edited by rubato on Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

Jarlaxle wrote:You are wasting natural resources, hypocrite!

$2.899 here yesterday...though diesel is still $3.379 or more.

Where has there been evidence presented that I am wasting natural resources? You are stupid. You invent things and pretend that your invented facts are 'proof' of something.



yrs,
rubato

rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

Lord Jim wrote:Rube never sees the logical connection between his own behavior and that which he arrogantly and hypocritically wishes to impose on others.

Market based methods preserve the greatest level of personal freedom and autonomy. In this case they also help to recover some of the externalized costs of burning fuel. And I am advocating something which will impose higher costs on myself.

IN eras of drought in Santa Cruz we have a series of methods of reducing water use to that which is sustainable.

The first is voluntary restrictions and cutting the times when you can water outdoors &c.
The second is punitive pricing for those who use more than their 'fair share'

So we use a combination of personal responsibililty (and I use less than half of my allotment) and then market-based methods.

In central Turkey, where a colleague's husband is from, they have an ongoing water shortage. They use neither of the above and just turn off water deliveries to everyone for long periods of time. My method shows greater respect for autonomy.


But on you gibber. Being stupid drive you to hatred; and makes it incurable.

An intelligent person would have admitted long ago that cutting the price increases use and that increased use causes other problems. But your stupidity prevents you from admitting what is obviously true.




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Lord Jim
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Lord Jim »

Rube's right about one thing though; the lowering cost of fuel is changing people's buying habits...

They now have hundreds and even thousands of dollars more in their pockets that they are spending in other sectors of the economy, spurring the economic recovery. They wouldn't be spending money on these things if the price of fuel were now where it was, so score one for rube's theory there...

This increasing consumer demand is in turn causing businesses to increase production and hiring...

Those are the "midterm" consequences that rube refers to....

And if these lower prices are sustained, it will severely undermine the power of some serious global bad actors (like Russia and Iran) and contribute to the destabilization of their regimes, while strengthening the US economy and the economies of other Western countries. Not only through economic growth, but also through the deficit reductions that new revenues from new taxpayers bring in.

Those are the "longterm" consequences...
Food is too cheap and that is the most important driver of the obesity epidemic, for one example.
This idiotic claim was thoroughly debunked before, and FYI rube, it hasn't become any less ignorant or stupid since then.

Oldr, one thing you have to realize about rube is that once he gets a notion in his head, (lower gas prices are bad, cheap food causes obesity, etc.) it attaches itself there with lampry-like tenacity, and becomes impossible to dislodge, no matter what the actual facts are.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

There is only one unalloyed good:

Nothing is good in itself, except a good will
Kant


yrs,
rubato

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

I missed the post that we were sysing low gas prices were good in itself. I think all those saying lower gas prices were good was because of the consequences it led to were good for people, businesses and the nation.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

rubato wrote:There is only one unalloyed good:
Nothing is good in itself, except a good will
Kant

yrs,
rubato
IN RE ESTATE OF KANT
No. 71-1402.
265 So.2d 524 (1972)
This petition alleged that Seymour Kant died intestate....
Then again, he was very rarely stable...
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Lord Jim
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Lord Jim »

Sliding Oil and Gas Prices Give Americans More Money to Spend

American consumers are going to enjoy a more bountiful Christmas this year, thanks in part to a most unlikely source: Saudi Arabia.

The steepening drop in gasoline prices in recent weeks — spurred by soaring domestic energy production and Saudi discounts for crude oil at a time of faltering global demand — is set to provide the United States economy with a multibillion-dollar boost through the holiday season and beyond.

The windfall, experts say, comes at a critical moment, with the American economy on the upswing but facing headwinds from other quarters, including weaker exports because of slow growth overseas. Gas prices recently dropped below $3 a gallon for the first time since 2010, while crude oil prices have fallen by more than $25 a barrel since midsummer, settling on Thursday just above $74.


“If oil prices stay between $75 and $95 a barrel, we would see the kind of stimulus package that the Federal Reserve or Congress could never do,” said Douglas R. Oberhelman, the chief executive of Caterpillar, the multinational maker of heavy construction equipment.

The impact is especially significant for low- and middle-income Americans,
who have been largely left behind by the anemic economic recovery that began in the middle of 2009. Even as the job market has improved, most workers have received only modest wage increases. Median income remains roughly 5 percent below the peak it hit in 2007.

Of course, the shifting energy picture will create losers as well as winners. Falling crude prices could eventually slow surging domestic oil and gas production, dimming one of the major economic bright spots of recent years. But while a further decline in oil prices would make it harder to tap the most costly oil shale deposits and deep offshore reserves, economists say the overall momentum will more than compensate for any potential slowdown in the energy patch.

“When oil prices fall, the benefit to consumers outweighs the loss to producers,” said Dean Maki, chief United States economist at Barclays. “Investment in oil and gas production is still less than 1 percent of gross domestic product. Consumer spending is 68.5 percent of G.D.P.”

Even in Texas, the estimated loss of 15,000 energy production jobs that might occur if lower crude prices persist would be offset by increased employment in sectors like refining and transportation, as well as in businesses that rely on consumer spending, according to Mine K. Yucel, senior vice president and director of research at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas.

“There may be some slowing, but it’s not going to be dramatic if we stay around $80,” Ms. Yucel said. “If the price goes below $70, we will probably see a tapering off of production.”

In the meantime, the most economically fragile part of the population is already feeling some relief, which is likely to lead to extra spending on a variety of other goods and services.

Penny-pinching has been a way of life for Elaine Murszewski since she was laid off from her tech support job in 2009, but Ms. Murszewski, who is self-employed in the Denver suburb of Aurora, says lower gas prices are already making life a little easier.

“If my clients need me to go to their homes, I don’t have to worry about my gas tank being empty,” said Ms. Murszewski, who cobbles together about $900 a month helping two clients organize their offices and run online marketing campaigns.

With Americans spending roughly $1 billion a day on gasoline, Tom Kloza, global head of energy analysis at the Oil Price Information Service, estimates that consumers will save roughly $8.4 billion in November and December, compared with the last two months of 2013, based on an average price for regular gasoline of about $2.89 a gallon as opposed to $3.23 last November and $3.26 last December.

The typical American household buys 1,200 gallons annually, so if prices fall to the level Mr. Kloza predicts and stay there, that adds up to a yearly savings per household of at least $400. A 15 percent drop in the cost of home heating oil since last winter should also be helpful, especially as cold weather arrives in the Northeast.

The extra cash in shoppers’ wallets and pocketbooks could help generate nearly half a percentage point in added economic growth in the fourth quarter,
and roughly $70 billion more in consumer spending over the next year, according to Barclays.

At Mall of America, a sprawling complex with 500 stores, mini golf and an aquarium in Bloomington, Minn., the drop in gas prices came as welcome news. Almost half of the 40 million visitors a year are out-of-state tourists, and most of them drive to the mall, which is just south of Minneapolis, said Dan Jasper, a mall spokesman.

“If they can save some money on gas, it makes it much easier for families who might be on a budget to hop in that car and come up for the day,” Mr. Jasper said.

Crude oil prices have been falling since they peaked early in the summer, as demand slowed from China and weak European economies. The decline sharpened earlier this month when Saudi Arabia, the world’s largest oil producer, cut the price of exports to the United States in a bid to retain market share.

At the pump, the drop in prices has been rapid, and most experts do not foresee a reversal of the trend anytime soon.

“We think lower gas prices in the U.S. are going to last for at least a year,” said Edward L. Morse, global head of commodities research at Citigroup. “Even if growth turns around globally, it would take two years of added demand around the world to move prices per barrel back to the mid-90s.”

On Wednesday, the federal Energy Information Administration cut its forecast for crude prices next year to $83 per barrel, $18 less than what the agency estimated last month, and predicted that the price of regular gasoline would stay below $3 gallon through all of 2015.

While consumers are the biggest beneficiaries, lower energy prices are also a boon to small-business owners like Barry Grossenburg.

The owner of Grossenburg Implement, a farm equipment business, Mr. Grossenburg sends his small fleet of trucks hundreds of miles from his main location in the small town of Winner, S.D., every day during the fall harvest season. Grossenburg Implement consumes roughly 250,000 gallons of diesel and gasoline a year, he said, so the savings at the pump could lift the company’s annual profit by $100,000.

Farmers who spend hours on the road this time of year hauling crops to market, he added, are also pleased with the drop in prices. “The fuel thing is going to help the whole economy,” Mr. Grossenburg said.

The automobile industry looks to be among corporate America’s biggest beneficiaries. Sales of trucks and sport utility vehicles jumped 9.1 percent last month from October 2013, according to the Autodata Corporation, as consumers flocked to more expensive, less fuel-efficient models that generate bigger profits for automakers. Passenger car sales registered a 2.8 percent increase.

But while some experts fear that efforts to conserve energy will falter if gasoline prices stay low, automakers say they will be more careful this time about ramping up production of S.U.V.s in response to cheaper gas, to avoid being left with bloated inventories when prices eventually rebound.

Lower crude prices are also unlikely to have a big effect on alternative energy in power markets, experts say, because oil does not generally compete as a source of electricity with renewables like wind and solar.

Meanwhile, businesses across the country are hoping oil prices stay down for a while.

“If this goes into the spring, that will be very helpful,” said Todd J. Teske, chief executive of Briggs & Stratton, a century-old Milwaukee manufacturer that is the world’s largest producer of gasoline engines for outdoor equipment like lawn mowers and snowblowers. “When the consumer has a few more dollars in their pocket, they’re apt to usually spend the money.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/busin ... onomy.html
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

No matter how you look at it, lower fuel prices is a good thing all around.
Especially when even the car manuf's are saying they are not going to rush headlong into building massive SUVs and Trucks anytime soon.

Wonder how this "low fuel price economic experiment" will turn out? We already saw how the 'high fuel price economic experiment" went.
Any one want to take a guess?

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Lord Jim
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Lord Jim »

And as the NY Times article points out, the greatest beneficiaries are those at the lower end of the income scale...

Not just in terms of the direct benefit that comes from lower prices at the pump, but in lower heating prices, and lower costs for every product that has to be transported to market...

Like food...

Oh wait, falling food prices are a bad thing.... :D
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Joe Guy
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Joe Guy »

I just noticed that since oil prices have fallen I feel like I might be diabetic. The monitoring of oil prices should be included in an annual physical exam.

I wonder if Obamacare would pay for it... :)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by Lord Jim »

I think it would be appropriate to ask rube a question I've asked him before...(not getting an answer then, and not expecting one on this occasion...)

Rube, why do you hate the working poor?
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

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For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

rubato
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Re: Unabashedly Good News...

Post by rubato »

Short term versus long term outcomes are frequently opposite in effect. And the long term effects are often the greater and more important as they are here. The short term effects of low prices are pleasurable but the certain long term effects are greater harm to the working poor and everyone else. I care about the working poor now and in the forseeable future. You hate them both now and in the future. You support Republican policies which will kill the working poor and bankrupt even more of them.


I had thought that this was apparent to anyone of the meanest intelligence. But your intelligence is meaner still. And more dishonest.

Someone who does not know that reducing prices will change behavior and increase use is too unintelligent and uninformed to discuss public policy at all.


yrs,
rubato

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