democratic election themes and daily talking points

[Crackpot]

I think that's more an insurance thing than a medial requirement. No hospital is going to deny lifesaving help without a photo ID

[TPFKA@W]

No one suggested they would deny emergency service and I already said it was presumably to prevent insurance fraud.

[wesw]

thanks jim, you explained why the voter fraud definition that was used was purposefully deceptive, and you demonstrated why my lack of faith in charts , surveys and polls is valid. they are easily manipulated to achieve the desired results.

I didn t read the article you posted, but you explained it perfectly yourself. I was gonna refute it myself but didn t make the effort, so thanks.

as far as ID when receiving medical treatment..., the only time I ve needed it was to pick up my methadone prescriptions at the pain management place and at the pharmacy

[MajGenl.Meade]

I didn t read the article you posted, but you explained it perfectly yourself. I was gonna refute it myself but didn t make the effort, so thanks

[Econoline]

Funny how Jim and Wes both seem to have completely missed the main point of that essay (by David Brin) which I quoted.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since they don't seem to have gotten even as far as the fourth paragraph--the one which begins, "Fundamentally, Voter ID laws are supported by red state white-older voters because – and let’s be frank – there is an element of truth in what they say. Voting is important. It is reasonable, over an extended period of time, to ratchet up accountability – and to ask that people prove who they are."

Oh well...

[Lord Jim]

I wanted to address the more general issue of the false way voter fraud is frequently defined in order to prove there is no problem, and then provide evidence that shows there is in fact a real problem when it is properly defined.

But now I'll be happy to address the false claim that "compliance assistance" for those who need IDs does not exist. This is taken from the Indiana sec of state's office; the Indiana voter ID law is the one that was first upheld by the SC and that since then has served as the template for most other voter ID laws:

If you do not possess an ID that is acceptable for voting purposes, Public Law 109-2005 requires the BMV to issue an Indiana State ID Card for free.

To obtain a free ID card for voting purposes from any BMV license branch, you will need to supply the necessary documentation as explained on the BMV's flyer to take with you to the BMV. You may also contact the Hoosier Voter Hotline at 1-866-IN-1-VOTE or the BMV at 1-888-692-6841.

SecureID is the BMV's effort to fully comply with the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission and with state and federal regulations. All permanent driver's licenses, permits, or ID cards will be mailed to customers and received within 10 business days. Temporary IDs will be given directly to the customer until the permanent IDs are received by mail. Temporary ID cards are acceptable for voting.

http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2625.htm

So let's see:

ID cards provided for free, temporary ID cards that can be used for voting issued on the spot, and unlimited free help provided over the phone by two sources, (including one dedicated exclusively to providing voting assistance...

That looks like a substantial amount of "compliance assistance"...

[Big RR]

That depends Jim on how accessible the BMV offices are and what forms of ID are required. If someone lives in a rural area and has no car, transport to the BMV could prove to be difficult if not impossible due to the dearth of public transportation. Also, the ID could be a problem, I know in my state the ID required is confusing and many people often have to make two or more trips; further, the ID requirements are generally tilted toward those who had a license before and/or own their home or have a written lease (without this, it is much more complicated).

The idea of making voter registration and voting easier stems from the principle that it is better to count everyone than a subset of the voting population. Tightening requirements reverses this and some will think it's just not worth the bother, even thought they should have the same vote as everyone else. If there really is a voter fraud (not registration, but actual voters) along the lines you have suggested, reasonable steps should be taken to prevent it, but if not we should not disenfranchise anyone. We can go to great pains when we want to count everyone--as we do in the census which, despite its problems, does count a larger portion of the population by making things easier for those counted to respond. IMHO we should do the same for voting.

[Guinevere]

Exactly, BigRR.

Fwiw, there is no DMV near my Mom that she could get to in her own, and I live 180 miles away and mostly only get there on weekends. It's just not always anywhere near as simple as some of you have suggested. She still has her Maine DL but her life has changed immeasurably in the last two years and we are all still catching up.

[MajGenl.Meade]

She still has her Maine DL ..... so no problem registering to vote then?

[TPFKA@W]

Fwiw, there is no DMV near my Mom that she could get to in her own, and I live 180 miles away and mostly only get there on weekends. It's just not always anywhere near as simple as some of you have suggested. She still has her Maine DL but her life has changed immeasurably in the last two years and we are all still catching up.

Well Indiana is civilized enough to have aging services that will provide transportation for this type of need. We also have things called taxi cabs that can be hired for transport. They even have transport should she need to use a wheel chair to get around.

[Lord Jim]

Not to mention the fact that private organizations and local political parties themselves also provide these transportation services (which I assume anyone calling the voter hotline will easily be able to get contact information for)

[Big RR]

Political parties will provide transport services to the BMV (which could well be a good distance away for some)? I would doubt it. And unless the aged services are different than those in my state, their transport is limited to local supermarkets and physicians' offices. Taxis could be prohibitively expensive depending on the distance. I think getting such ID could be difficult, if not impossible, for some.

[TPFKA@W]

Wiggle and squirm, squirm and wiggle, it is all lame excuse making. and yes in Indiana, particularly in the rural areas there are services that will get you to the BMV if you need to go. I have a cousin who works for the area agency on aging and she does exactly that. There would be no reason that they would take someone to town for groceries and then NOT stop by the BMV for them.

The excuse making is lessening my respect for some around here.

[TPFKA@W]

Here is an excerpt from a random area aging website, Arkansas based I believe:

Rural Public Transportation

This rural public transportation program is designed to bridge the gap between rural and urban areas. The service can be used for shopping, personal needs, nutrition centers, and much more. This is a service for all ages.

Rides must be scheduled 48 business hours prior to when you want to ride.
Most rural areas will have a rotating schedule which means that there will be a designated day of the week the van will be in your city.
You will be able to travel within your home city for $6.00 round trip. Additional fees may apply for extra stops.
Due to limited space, public transportation is provided on a first come first serve basis.

My bold. So even if you live out among the razor back hogs, if there is a will there is a way. No more pathetic excuses please.

[Big RR]

That second service sounds good--we have nothing like that here. And we also do not have a BMV (or its equivalent) in every town. I live in a fairly developed area and the closest office is 12 miles--too far to walk or for a taxi and nowhere along the way to a store.

As for excuse making, IMHO anything that could lessen voter registration or turnout is suspect from the outset. IT may be necessary if there is a problem, but so far no one has shown any data that large numbers of noncitizens are voting because of deficiencies in the system. Abesent that, why go to such extremes?

[TPFKA@W]

That second service sounds good--we have nothing like that here. And we also do not have a BMV (or its equivalent) in every town. I live in a fairly developed area and the closest office is 12 miles--too far to walk or for a taxi and nowhere along the way to a store.

As for excuse making, IMHO anything that could lessen voter registration or turnout is suspect from the outset. IT may be necessary if there is a problem, but so far no one has shown any data that large numbers of noncitizens are voting because of deficiencies in the system. Abesent that, why go to such extremes?

I am not sure where you live, but I made a phone call and found that New Jersey has available NJ Transit. A senior can call 2 days in advance and request transport to, and I asked specifically, to get to a place to vote or to a BMV and wheel chair access is available. The cost is $1.

I am going to take a stab and say that if I knew specifically where you live I could google and call and find transportation within 10 minutes.

But if you want to continue....

[Econoline]

As for excuse making, IMHO anything that could lessen voter registration or turnout is suspect from the outset. IT may be necessary if there is a problem, but so far no one has shown any data that large numbers of noncitizens are voting because of deficiencies in the system. Abesent that, why go to such extremes?

Exactly, Big RR. (And as you mentioned before, if someone doesn't have a driver's license just getting the forms of ID that are required in order to get the state Voter ID is sometimes a problem.)

And BTW, besides requiring government-issued ID to cast a ballot more restrictive laws in some locations also include eliminating same-day voter registration, cutting early voting, cutting back the hours and days for early voting, shutting down voter registration drives, and purging the voting rolls. I'm glad some of us here live in states (or cities, or counties) where none of these things are a problem but laws and enforcement vary by state and even by locality so it's not enough to say "I have no problems voting so therefore nobody will have a problem." Anyone want to specifically address the situation in Texas, or North Carolina, or Florida, or Kansas?

[Big RR]

There is NJ Transit, and it exists in many areas, but not all. Where it exists it is generally wheelchair accessible, and it does have reduced fares for seniors; it may even have stops at some motor vehicle centers (but I have never seen this). However, it is a system that has been grossly underfunded, is teetering on bankruptcy, and has cut way back on its services--especially in northwest and southern jersey, the more rural areas. I do some work with children's services in northwest jersey, and generally the only way people can get to court or to other services is if they can drive themselves or if the Division drives them--there is no NJ transit service in many areas; the same is true for south jersey. Polling places are not a problem, most are local and within walking distance or can be accessed by local senior and paratransit services; but places like the DMV are much more difficult to get to without driving.

But face it, NJ is the most densely populated state in the US, I think the problems are even bigger with less populous, larger states. And therein lies the problem.

Voting is a right, it is not a privilege or something earned based on your ability to spend hours trying to get a motor vehicle division ID. While we must have some rules to combat voter fraud, they should be in proportion to the problems being addressed. And again, here, I do not see evidence of voter fraud. Sure, I'll assume some noncitizens show up on juror lists based on published data (which I have no reason to dispute); but the assumption that this translates into voter fraud that is prevalent enough to prompt these drastic measures is something I have never seen supported.

econoline--exactly, IMHO we should be encouraging voting and registration, not discouraging it by placing unnecessary obstacles in the way.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I don't see the problem with having to present ID to vote. The person voting certainly has to go through some hoops to get to the voting booth, they can go through the same to get ID if it's that important to them. The rural people get to town once in a while to get groceries and such. While there they can get their id. Problem comes when they wait til the last minute and then cry foul because their ride canceled or could get their on time. I (USA) are one of the few who don't check id in order to vote.

Heck, the gov spent almost a billion dollars to get the obamacare website "almost" running, it would probably cost less than that to make sure all citizens had voter id's.
If some claim it's too much trouble to get id, it would probably be too much trouble to vote for them anyway.

[MajGenl.Meade]

IMHO anything that could lessen fake voter registration or turnout is suspect from the outset

FTFY